• redsox1
    Posts: 217
    We have been primarily using "Simple English Propers" and "By Flowing Waters" since introducing the Propers (or at least some of them!) to my parish a couple of years ago. The Propers have been well-received, although they are sung primarily by choir, schola, or cantor since we don't produce a weekly worship aid. We do have a hymnal insert and I did include Entrance Antiphons for Advent and Lent. (I'm hoping to eventually do a weekly worship aid but it will probably take some time.) Today was my first experience with Psallite, and we used the Communion Antiphon from that collection. It went over beautifully as people were able to respond after one hearing of the antiphon. For those of you in large, suburban parishes who are working toward the goal of "singing the Mass," this could be a very useful collection. It offers a a different perspective than the collections listed above as it is more contemporary in flavor, yet the music is dignified, well-crafted, the settings are flexible in terms of what musical forces are needed, and the antiphons are easily sung by the assembly.
  • I'm trying them for the first time on the 4th Sunday of Lent, as the antiphons seemed more fitting than those in the Simple Gradual.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    Link for more info?
  • Thank you so much for the kind words about the communion antiphon from Psallite. Was it "Here Is My Servant, Here Is My Son"? What did your congregation make of the Canticle form Isaiah? Did you try the round?
    Here Is My Servant, Here Is My Son.pdf
    61K
  • Johannes, are you using the RCIA option, "You Are Light in the Lord" or the Year C communion song, "Come, Come to the Banquet"?
  • CCttB. An alto descant! Imagine!
  • redsox1
    Posts: 217
    Dr. Ford,

    Yes, we sang "Here Is My Servant, Here Is My Son." All comments were positive. We did the round in two parts between SA and TB. We'll definitely be using more from this collection.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Resurrecting this old thread. I'm interested in trying out Psallite, but extensive internet searches have produced little in the way of sample scores and recordings. The few links that were out there a couple years ago are now dead. And the LitPress site doesn't seem very interested in selling this resource anymore.

    Does anyone have experience on how these collections have grown with your parish over a period of a couple years? Anyone have recordings of successful performances with your choir that you care to share (for educational purposes only)?
  • I just received a mailing from LitPress, and it includes a new addition to Psallite, "Celebrate, Remember" for Weddings and Funerals. It almost looks as if Psallite: Sacred Song for Liturgy and Life, has enlarged into a series, where the books don't take the title Psallite, but rather fall under its program of liturgical music. Here's the website as it stands now:

    litpress.org/psallite
  • I very much appreciate what Psallite and other similar resources are doing, though I may not always find the contemporary settings to be best for Mass (though they often fit with the architecture of many 20th century church buildings).

    However, I wonder why so many of these resources restrict themselves to the Roman Missal antiphons. It is a big debate, had here and elsewhere, so I don't mean to start a new discussion on sung vs. spoken. I simply want to point out that there seems to be a lack of effort to get to know the book that GIRM clearly points to as the source of the Propers. Does nobody wonder why the Offertory is left out, or do they assume, because the Roman Missal leaves it out, that there is no Offertory proper? Or is it that there has never been an official English translation of the Graduale? I emailed ICEL a little while ago, and I don't believe that is in the works.
  • '...(though they often fit with the architecture of many 20th century church buildings).'

    This is an interesting notion: that of the complimentarity of style between music and architecture. As one who is notoriously conscious of aesthetical consistency it makes for some self examination. The implication is that modern music is fit only for modern architecture whilst only older musical styles are appropriate for historic architectural styles. I cannot, though, agree that this should be a guiding and legitimate principle. For one example, English choirs have no trouble singing Howells, Vaughan Williams, and Britten in their marvelous mediaeval buildings; and, if this principal were followed religiously, much good modern music could never be heard in church because it didn't match the architecture. Further, by this logic, one could not sing Tallis and Palestrina in mediaeval churches because they 'don't match the architecture'. Likewise, one could not, for the same reason, sing Gregorian chant in a modern church. Likewise, we could only sing Victorian hymns in XIXth century faux-Gothic churches, and could sing only Gounod or Faure in French churches, and only in French churches of the late romantic era. I, for one, would not want for us to be so restricted. Poulenc and Stravinski sound marvelous and are spiritually beneficent whether sung in Durham cathedral or the austere late XXth century Phillip Johnson chapel of St Basil at Houston's UST. If this principle had been followed, why, organum and discant could never have been sung in pre-XIIth century buildings and only des Prez could yet be sung in XVth century buildings. But wait! We could never allow XXIst century people in XVth century architecture because they wouldn't 'fit'. Etc, etc.

    I even once approached a man who served at a Saturday mass at St Basil's and remarked that he should have been vested. His innocent reply?: wearing a cassock and surplice 'wouldn't fit the architecture'. Strange reasoning, n'est ce pas?



    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Adam Wood
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Another interesting connection is that between liturgy and architecture. The grand cathedrals were obviously inspired by the traditional liturgy and constructed for it.

    On the other hand, Martin Mosebach, in The Heresy of Formlessness, convincingly relates the intrinsic connection between the reformed liturgy and insipid, bland, meaningless, abstract modern church architecture and ornaments.
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Glorious architecture should have glorious music - bland shapeless boxes should have bland shapeless liturgy... oh wait, that's about what happens..
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • Oh that that were true, Bonniebede! Glorious architecture has no effect on what most people will do within its walls; nor, in many cases, does it escape being 'modernised' by thoughtless souls to whom nothing is holy except the imaginations of their own feckless hearts. You'd think that they would look about, take note of where they are, and 'get it' music- and liturgy-wise, that they would be embarrassed to do the things they do, but they are clueless to any and all but their own banal desires.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Magnificent traditional church architecture and art aren't by themselves enough to preserve the Catholic faith. They are the framework and ornaments for the traditional Catholic liturgy and are like a hollow shell or empty frame without it.

    It tears me up to see stories of beloved Old World churches being closed in New York City, but it's happening every where. In the Netherlands, thousands of Catholics leave the Church every year---a grim outlook for Catholics the world over since it was the Dutch Church that was held up as the glittering paradigm of success for the reforms of liturgy and catechesis.

    From Gloria TV News comes this sobering account:

    In an interview during the archdiocesan pilgrimage to Lourdes, Utrecht Cardinal Willem Eijk, used frightening words about the state of the Church in the Netherlands.

    Quote: “If we continue like this, the Church will be like a Christmas tree. At some point all the needles will have fallen, and that’s it, the Church quietly passes away.”

    After Second Vatican Council the Dutch Church was considered the great example for implementing the Council. Now, it is on the verge of dissolution.


    The fading Christmas tree analogy is exacting symbolism for the Incredible Shrinking Dutch Church, esp. when you continue the analogy and think of how a Christmas tree is cut off from its roots and begins to die from that point though it continues to look fresh and healthy for some time.

    The Church in some places was almost completely cut off from its roots, its traditions and culture after Vatican II and we are seeing the tragic results of the "hermeneutic of rupture" more and more every day.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I'm actually finding Jackson's digression more compelling than the thread focus.
    I have to say that what is so apparent about the graces of the Church are to be found in both Julie's comment above, and Jackson's exegesis (plural?)
    Out here in Death Valley, we just had Lit.Comm. mtg. yesterday. We reviewed 11 First Communions and 5 Confirmations. We are hard on the trail of seeing the viability of using our convention center on ONE DAY for these sacraments. (We have held two OLOG convention center Masses, and know the territory. The diocese also uses it for its annual congress.) We are four parishes merged. Territoriality is still a concern. The pastor was rightfully concerned about the sort of "Kodak moment" of not being at "one's own parish." One of our vicars piped in the "where two or three are gathered in My Name" ethos and said as much as THE CHURCH, on such a day, is present and the significance of that should prevail over lesser objections. I am likewise reminded that an Army Jeep in Korea serving as an altar on a battleground, or even a Big Tent assemblage before 5M Faithful on Ipanema Beach in Rio nonetheless affects the sacramental efficacy of God's providence through the Holy Mass. All things in all measure.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 442
    Over history, the church has been through far worse than it has in the last 50 years. Yes, life has changed dramatically in some Western countries. But the church's roots are Christ and the Holy Spirit, not magnificent architecture, exquisite music, intricate liturgy. Faith will flourish again in the west, as it is doing in some parts of the east now.
  • To which I shall add: the Church's roots are Christ and the Holy Spirit, not (as too many seem to believe) unmagnificent architecture, banal music, tacky liturgy. Faith will flourish again in the west, as it is doing in some parts of the east now.

    There! That's more balanced, isn't it!?
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    The Church's roots are indeed Christ and the Holy Spirit, but when the "received and approved rites" generated over the centuries which had transmitted the Faith from one generation to the next were jettisoned in favor of an ecumenically-based, artificially contrived liturgy, that was an enormous blow.

    What was the result of that ecclesiastical earthquake? Martin Mosebach in The Heresy of Formlessness, The Roman Liturgy and Its Enemy:

    "Initially it must have felt like a deathblow when the old liturgy was driven from the magnificent old churches that had been created for it. Then, however, it became clear that it was the churches that died, once the spirit of the sacred vanished from them; the liturgy itself stayed alive, albeit in lamentable circumstances. For it is the liturgy that produces all that is solemn and festive---art can contribute nothing essential to it."
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Lex orandi, lex credendi. It's that simple: you cannot change the Law of Prayer without changing in some way the Law of Belief. The Missal is not some mere collection of pious utterances: it is probably the most important theological text that the Church has, because the Liturgy is probably the only teacher of theology that most laymen have. If the Liturgy contains faulty theology or ignores certain aspects of theology than that error is what the faithful will believe.

    Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, et al. knew this, which is why one of the first things they did was change the Liturgy.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    Does nobody wonder why the Offertory is left out, or do they assume, because the Roman Missal leaves it out, that there is no Offertory proper? Or is it that there has never been an official English translation of the Graduale?

    The 1972 Graduale Romanum does contain Off. propers. But the entrance and communion antiphons in the Roman Missal have always been intended to be read (without any additional psalm verses) when the proper introit or communio chant from the GR or a substitute song is not sung. The absence of offertory antiphons in the Roman Missal has a clear meaning: when the Off. proper from the GR is not chanted, there is no recited text.

    There are no approved vernacular translations of the Graduale Romanum because the Apostolic See never called for such translations. That was also the case with the Graduale Simplex when it was promulgated in 1967. The introduction (praenotanda) says nothing about translation. Only later did the Consilium issue norms for its translation "at the request of many conferences of bishops" in the Jan. 23, 1968, communication (Instantibut pluribus) to presidents of the national liturgical commissions. Those norms are found at document no. 120 in Documents on the Liturgy 1963-1979. They are also contained in the (ICEL) English translation of the Graduale Simplex, available, I believe, from the CMAA in PDF format.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    They are also contained in the (ICEL) English translation of the Graduale Simplex, available, I believe, from the CMAA in PDF format.


    Say what now?
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    Adam, I thought I downloaded the document from CMAA. Perhaps I am mistaken.

    If it is not there or at CCWatershed, it may still be found at Dr. Paul Ford's dropbox. He posted this link a couple of years ago:

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7331043/Simple Gradual ICEL 1968 translation.pdf but I get an ERROR message when I try that.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    Some of the 1968 ICEL GS antiphons are included in http://www.liturgyoffice.org.uk/Missal/Music/ProcessionalBook.pdf though not the responsorial psalm, and it is mostly texts from GR. John Ainslie set the Sundays and Holidays of Obligation from GS/ICEL in 1969, he may be able to point to a set. He is currently treasurer of the British Society of St Gregory: treasurer@ssg.org.uk
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    It is just news to me that there is an ICEL translation of the GS.

    Is this news to anyone else?
    Was it approved and promulgated or just provisional?
    Was it published?
    Did it have music?
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    No music, just translations.
  • 1. No, but it's obscure enough.
    2. It was approved in 1968 by the Consilium.
    3. Yes, but apparently its dissemination was limited to inner-circle/circular-file.
    4. No. But Dr. Ford used many of the antiphons for By Flowing Waters, as did I for the Choral Graduale Simplex.
  • I emailed ICEL a few months ago, and heard back from them, regarding the translation of the Simple Gradual. It seems not to have been something that was distributed publicly, at least with any effort to spread it around. Perhaps it simply shares the fate of its original, which is even less used generally than the Roman Gradual, strangely enough.

    It doesn't contain musical settings, but is simply designed to provide texts for musical settings that match the spirit of those in the Simple Gradual. It seems to have been approved by the Consilium, but I don't know if the texts are still approved.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    The Processional currently available from the Bishops Conference of England and Wales http://www.liturgyoffice.org.uk/Missal/Music/ProcessionalBook.pdf is presumably approved for use at least here, and includes ICEL GS translations. All the texts have attributions noted, and have been made accessible for musicians to set in 2012.