How do you remove cantor from the ambo?

teachermom24

Nevermind--I figured it out.

ryand

Do share.

JPike1028

With a long hooked cane.

jpal

With a Bond-esque ejection seat?

CharlesW

Poison works, or so I hear. LOL. Ask the Borgias.

Spriggo

A little Goo Be Gone and some Febreze.

francis

I just tell them the church wants them to be "in another suitable place"

Kathy

Trapdoor, set off by vibrato.

teachermom24

OK, this is the story . . . our priest recently established a parish council and charged each committee to come up with a "5 year vision" for their particular area of the parish. As the choir director, I sit on the "Worship and Music" committee and so have been devising my own 5-year-plan to present to our committee. I'm dreaming big and offering what I think would be the very best (I can dream, can't I :-) ). One detail is to remove the cantor from the ambo to a less prominent place.

I realized it is very simple as my daughter and I now sing the Communion antiphon standing next to the organ (organ and choir are off to the left of the altar area). I see no reason we could not do the psalmody and Gospel acclamation from that same spot. Then when we establish the other propers (as if my vision will be realized) the congregation can be cued from there as well.

francis

teachermom

That's how we used to do it until we got one of those music committees.

Adam Wood

until we got one of those music committees

quite.

noel jones, aago

When you are faced with a "music committee", do as a Rabbi I know of does when the Jehovah Witnesses arrive at his door:

"Hi, we're here to speak with you about the Bible!"

"Fine, what do YOU want to know."

And keep it that way. explaining music and its role in liturgy to them and answering their questions. That's what you were hired for, if you let them tell you how to do things instead of teaching them how things are to be done, you are not doing your job.

To convince Catholics not to sing at the pulpit, show them videos of churches where this is not done. Teach them this way, they can then tell others why, fulfilling their jobs as being on the music committee. The true, effective job of a music committee is acting as representatives of the congregation and spreading the word of what is being done, not to tell you how to do the music of the priest to say Mass.

Olbash

Wait a minute. Everyone here seems to think the ambo is the wrong place for the cantor to be. But, unless there is some good reason to do otherwise, isn't the ambo the proper place for a cantor to sing the responsorial psalm? I mean, sure, I'd prefer a schola singing the gradual from some lofty height behind me, but if you're just doing a responsorial psalm with a solo cantor, why take it out of the ambo?

Paul F. Ford

I agree with you, Steven. The psalmist may sing the psalm from the ambo.

francis

Olbash

We are speaking of cantors (in particular) who don't have the right attitude, comportment or voice to be there in the first place. Otherwise, I agree with you.

CharlesW

I don't let mine sing from the ambo, since I am over 1/2 block away at the organ. It is helpful when I need to lean over and say, "you're on the wrong verse."

teachermom24

The thought for this occurred to me when I put in my vision to remove women from the altar area (altar servers, lectors, EMs)--so what about the cantors? Should those women be prominent in front of the congregation or would it (could it) be better if they were less prominent? Our church is small enough that amplification is not needed so the cantors can and do sing just as well from beside the organ.

Steve Q

At one parish where I worked, we had the cantor sing from the ambo ONLY for the psalm. All other singing was done from the loft. This worked well. Only issue I had was that I could not keep the cantors from doing that two-hands-raised-slowly-above-your-head cue thingy.

francis

Steve:

Yes, I have had numerous cantors over the years that have had arm wave addiction. Sometimes I think the real reason behind it is, "hey, look at me!" and has nothing to do with leading the people. I often hear people complain, "Geez... doens't that guy/girl know that we are intelligent enough to know when to sing?" You have to send them to AA (Armwavers Anonymous). Until they are sober, you have to keep them away from the Ambo.

Gavin

How do you remove the cantor from the ambo?

First step is to ignore the GIRM.

Aristotle Esguerra

At one of our two churches, another cantor and I sing the Responsorial Psalm from the ambo a cappella (refrain in unison, verses in two-part homophony).

We make no effort to physically cue the congregation other than lifting our heads after the singing of a strophe's final line; we also slow down noticeably at this point. I don't even look at the congregation, preferring instead to look at a statue of the Pietà over the doorway to the narthex.

At the other one, the Psalm is sung from the loft ("another suitable place", GIRM ¶61). When the Psalm is accompanied, a simple organ pedal serves as the cue for the breath before the refrain.

I note no significant difference in congregational volume, but then I'm paying more attention to the words than to popular reception.

No arms in any case. People are intelligent, and the settings we use are self-effacing and predictable (melodically and rhythmically).

Ruth Lapeyre

I thought in the Novus Ordo the psalm and alleluia are suppose to be sung from the ambo if you are not in a choir loft. Isn't the ambo considered outside of the sanctuary?

chonak

GIRM 61 isn't that specific about the place for presenting the psalm: "the ambo or another suitable place".

In churches that define the sanctuary with an altar rail, the ambo is usually within it; at least that's my experience.

Ruth Lapeyre

You are correct. We have an altar rail at my church which is why we sing the Psalm from the loft.

elaine60

Responsorial Psalm should be from the ambo-where the Word of God is proclaimed. All else yes from a cantor stand to the side or back which is appropriate for the church.

CharlesW

In other words, the ambo or another suitable place?

Gavin

Here's a question for legislation-junkies who support the (obvious) reading of the GIRM that the cantor should proclaim the psalm from the ambo: From whence should the Gospel Acclamation and Verse be proclaimed? Is the ambo suitable for this, or is another space specified? Or is it left unspecified?

I am of the opinion that the cantor ought to do so from the ambo, but I don't believe I have the weight of legislation to back that up.

ScottKChicago

I think there's a difference between the psalm at the ambo and the Gospel acclamation: the former is sung with everyone staying in place and focusing; the latter is sung during liturgical movement (the deacon or celebrant getting the Gospel book and moving to the ambo), so I would think the cantor would lead the Gospel acclamation from the choir area or wherever he or she leads from when not at the ambo. There would seem to be practical reasons, too, like avoiding a traffic jam around the ambo. The ambo should probably best be unoccupied while preparations are being made for the deacon to get there.

Gavin

I'm referring of course to situations where the church has both an ambo and a pulpit. Or perhaps the Gospel might be proclaimed facing the altar? ;) But that's a whoooole other can of worms! I was once at another church, with the musicians in the front, where there were three "podiums", if you will: one for preaching, one for the lector, and one for the cantor. It made sense, though I question the liturgical precision of such a layout.

Aristotle Esguerra

I have seen setups where there have been two podiums; one for the Lectionary on the Epistle side/liturgical south, and another of greater visual prominence for the Evangeliary (book of Gospels) on the Gospel side/liturgical north. The Responsorial Psalm and the Gospel Acclamation would then be proclaimed from the former, and this possesses some vestige of continuity with the rubrics of the earlier form.

If a parish possesses both a Lectionary and an Evangeliary, it makes sense to have two podia.

melofluent

Thanks Gavin and Aristotle, happily we have that very setup with a small lecturn on the epistle side. For the responsorial, the psalmist proceeds from the choir (no rail) to the ambo. Only occasionally, as I did yesterday for the Rite of Election with bishop, use the smaller lecturn for the GA, but it does work nicely, particularly for visitors from other parishes.
I wonder, though, if one's parish is fortuned to be able to hear the Latin gradual and alleluia whether it would be imprudent to use either ambo/lecturn. The nature between the RP/GA and their GR Latin counterparts are significantly different.

Aristotle Esguerra

Perhaps sing the Gradual from the step (gradus)? :¬) Or the choir area, wherever that may be. Same with the Alleluia or Tract.

noel jones, aago

It would seem to be appropriate for the music to come from one place and reading from another....especially since music goes on throughout the Mass. Solves that entire traveling up to the ~~ambo~~ pulpit and back down distraction.

TCJ

I also find that when someone is up front everyone stares at that person. When someone is in the choir loft, only the little kids stare back.

francis

Noel:

We now have a traffic jam at the ambo since the cantors have insisted on singing from there. Not to much of a problem with the RP, but it is VERY distracting having them walk up, while everyone in waiting and watching. I am embarrased every time it occurs. And then the real problem is that when it comes time to sing the GA, the deacon or priest stands there facing the cantor and waits with the Book of the Gospels for the cantor to finish singing, move out of the way, and then the reader is finally able to approach the ambo. Very silly and unecessary.

M. Jackson Osborn

Well, GIRM does stupulate ambo, doesn't it? And, this is not an ipso facto 'scene'. As in all things a proper procedure and decorum need to be choreographed and taught to all relevant parties so that a very sacral and liturgical air is pervasive in all movement and delivery. The only other alternative conceived of by GIRM is that the psalm be sung by a choir, either plain or with faburdens or such, and this choir would presumably be in choir or in a west choir gallery. Most people do not know how to walk with that unmistakable liturgical waft. They should be taught it and have it expected of them.

CHGiffen

CANT AM BOOR
AM BO
CANT OR

Ben

Why not just have the psalm and alleluia sung from wherever the cantor normally is? I've found that is easiest and avoids any awkward situations. Also makes it a little easier to coordinate with the organist, I've found (or at least as easy as the rest of the Mass, if you're in front and the organist is in back).

It makes a lot of sense to do it there, particularly if you're singing the propers, since those are scripture as well.

CharlesW

Ben, that's too easy!

Jani

Here's how we do it: when there are musicians, which are located in the back, everything is sung from the back. Now that we have only me, rather than sing the whole Mass a capella in the back, which I'm just burnt out from doing, I put up hymn numbers from the missal or music issue, lead the songs from my seat, and sing the RP and the Alleluia from the ambo. Our sanctuary is very small but this is doable: lector reads, then immediately sits in the chair just to the right of the ambo. I take my place, sing the psalm then smoothly trade places with the lector who reads the second reading then exits the sanctuary. I sing the alleluia and the verse, then exit the sanctuary. Since I have always sat in the front row right in front of the ambo, no one even notices the movement.

Wow - that reads much more complex than it actually is in practice!

Here's a practice that I put a stop to rather quickly...there was a time when the musicians used to present in the sanctuary to receive Communion = talk about people staring and feeling really awkward! I simply said one day "We are going to stop at that sanctuary step and receive there." Much better.

matthewj

Every time I see this thread I picture some large fellow from a Godfather/Goodfellas movie saying, "excuse me a moment, I need to remove the cantor from the ambo...,"

francis

I have often thought about putting in a zipline from the choir loft to the ambo so that the cantor could get quickly to the Liturgy of the Word. The cantor has plenty of time to walk back after singing since the homily is soon thereafter.

TCJ

Here's a practice that I put a stop to rather quickly...there was a time when the musicians used to present in the sanctuary to receive Communion = talk about people staring and feeling really awkward! I simply said one day "We are going to stop at that sanctuary step and receive there." Much better.

At one church I worked at, the organist (me) and cantor/choir would just be first in line to receive communion. One day the pastor told me that we need to walk up to the sanctuary behind the altar to receive. It seems really, really awkward to me. What was the result? We got back up to the choir loft maybe ten seconds sooner.

noel jones, aago

Well, GIRM does stupulate ambo,

This was the GIRM from 1975:

The psalmist or cantor of the psalm sings the verses of the psalm at the lectern or other suitable place. The people remain seated and listen, but also as a rule take part by singing the response, except when the psalm is sung straight through without the response.

The psalm when sung may be either the psalm assigned in the Lectionary or the gradual from the Graduale Romanum or the responsorial psalm or the psalm with Alleluia as the response from The Simple Gradual in the form they have in those books.

The current GIRM - I suggest that we all memorize this paragraph.

It is preferable that the responsorial Psalm be sung, at least as far as the people's response is concerned. Hence, the psalmist, or the cantor of the Psalm, sings the verses of the Psalm from the ambo or another suitable place. The entire congregation remains seated and listens but, as a rule, takes part by singing the response, except when the Psalm is sung straight through without a response. In order, however, that the people may be able to sing the Psalm response more readily, texts of some responses and Psalms have been chosen for the various seasons of the year or for the various categories of Saints. These may be used in place of the text corresponding to the reading whenever the Psalm is sung. If the Psalm cannot be sung, then it should be recited in such a way that it is particularly suited to fostering meditation on the word of God.

1975:
The psalmist or cantor of the psalm sings the verses of the psalm at the lectern or other suitable place.

Now:
the psalmist, or the cantor of the Psalm, sings the verses of the Psalm from the ambo or another suitable place.

Note that the verses may be spoken, seasonal psalms may be used replacing the indicated one bu preserving the verses chosen, and there are two roles, often ignored - psalmist and cantor are not necessarily the same person.

Andrew_Malton

It's true that there may be more than one (solo) singer. But in this rubric there is only the psalmist, that is, the singer of the psalm.

Adam Wood

huh?

Those are two SLIGHTLY different translations of the same text, aren't they? And the quotes at the end say EXACTLY the same thing.

They both say:
-the person who is delivering the psalm should do so from the same place where the scriptures are read, or from some other location.

I'm also not sure how you're assuming that the Psalmist and the Cantor are "two different roles."

psalmist = person who sings (or reads/proclaims/delivers) the psalm
Cantor of the psalm = person who sings the psalm

ambo = lectern = place from which the scripture lesson are proclaimed

other suitable place = another suitable place = some place that isn't the lector/ambo

latebloomer13

Cantors are at the mercy of those who trained them. I am a Music Director and a Cantor : I was taught that the Responsorial Psalm is Sacred text and therefore is proclaimed from the Ambo. All else is sung from the podium. The GIRM seems to support that. As to " waving" ones arms about, that isn't necessary: Both arms, or a single arm raised to eye level seems to work . The role of the cantor is to bring in the congregation..once they 've done that they should do less, vocally. Some may find it excessive to post hymn numbers as well as announce the hymn, but the reality is that some may be visually or aurally challenged. A well trained Cantor can communicate with the organist while mainatining decorum, regardless of whether the space is a large or small one and possesses the common sense to adapt to an awkward situation and assist in remedying it. Theses are the points I stress when training Cantors. But the most important thing a Cantor needs to know is that they/we are there to serve: there is no spotlight on the ambo... or podium.

And that's my 2 cents..

Peace.

noel jones, aago

latebloomer,

Simply put, no. Cantors have existed for centuries and there is no document up until the present that encouraged/permitted any kind of physical motion by the cantor to tell singers when to enter.

You're right, your teacher and his/her teachers were misinformed about the Psalm being a Sacred text and that is must be at the Ambo. The GIRM makes that clear.

The epistle and psalm were not said/sung ever at the ambo/pulpit. When the priest went there you knew that you were going to hear the word of god in the gospel and his preaching, not as a man with an opinion or travel monologue about his last trip, but as a priest expounding upon the word of God and the faith.

The symbolism is gone. Children never get to ask "Why does the priest go up there at Mass?" because EVERYBODY goes up there and speaks about just about anything.

And...if the GIRM says psalmist or cantor then why do the rubrics state otherwise? Let's see it, I'm interested.

Salieri

Disclaimer : this is my opinion

Here's my 2 cents :

I wish the church would make a distinction between a 'song leader' and a cantor. A person who leads the congregational singing of "Praise to the Lord" (to my thinking) is not fulfilling the liturgical role of the cantor; whereas the person(s) who intone(s) the Introit, or sing the Verse of the Gradual or Alleluia, &c., are (to my mind) true cantors in the liturgical sense. Also, if the Responsorial psalm is sung from an ambo because it is a 'sacred text' then so ought to be the Introit, Alleluia, Tract, Offertory and Communion (all usually taken from the Psalms or other Scripture, or rarely another text).

I, personally, do not think that it is appropriate to sing the Responsorial Psalm/Gradual from the ambo as the readings because the purpose of the two is different : the Readings are proclaimed to the people for their instruction, the Gradual and Alleluia/Tract are sung by the Schola and Cantors to aid meditation on the text previously proclaimed and to prepare for the reception of the next text. (c.f. Mahrt, The Musical Shape of the Liturgy, Saulnier, Gregorian Chant.)

(Actually more like 50 cents...)

PS : It is the schola/choir, that was the orignal congregational song leader ; and if there is no choir/schola the organ should lead the singing. (Note organ, not organist.)

Paul_D

The thought for this occurred to me when I put in my vision to remove women from the altar area (altar servers, lectors, EMs)--so what about the cantors? Should those women be prominent in front of the congregation or would it (could it) be better if they were less prominent?

Rather than quibble over the GIRM on cantor placement, shouldn't you seek support from sound, official sources on this point? I don't think you will find any Church teaching which supports this. Women lectors outside the sanctuary? Really?

Adam Wood

the GIRM says psalmist or cantor

FNJ's interpretation:
the Psalm is delivered by
-the psalmist
OR
-the Cantor of the psalm.

Another possible interpretation:
the Psalm is delivered by
-the psalmist, also known as the Cantor of the psalm

I am of the opinion that the punctuation supports interpretation 2.

I'm also of the opinion that this is silly.

What the GIRM does, in fact, clearly state, is that Psalm should be sung from the Ambo (also known as the Lectern, also known as wherever the scriptures are being proclaimed from), or (alternatively) pretty much any other place you want to do it from.

( "another appropriate x" = "any x you like" )

Issues of historical practice (two lecterns?) are only relevant if your parish's architecture and praxis includes these things. I daresay those parishes can very well figure out what they ought to be doing.

Issues of other things (announcements, sermons, stewardship appeals) being delivered from the same place does not affect whether or not the Psalm SHOULD be delivered from there. Imagine a lector-coordinator deciding that the Old Testment reading shouldn't be read form the lectern(ambo) because (s)he is annoyed about the head of the finance committee using the same ambo(lectern) to deliver the annual business report. This is ludicrous.

The GIRM has a preference, and an option. Take the option if it is needed or useful. And if you disagree with the GIRM's preference- that's fine, everyone can have an opinion. But don't pretend your preference is the mind of the church and berate other people who are DOING WHAT THE GIRM REQUESTS.

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