Some sad news/prayers needed/and my thanks.
  • Banning the use of the choir room for music lessons is not uncommon when working to shut down a music program, it removes the musician who may teaching (especially for free) to improve the ability of musicians in the parish, removes them as a positive influence.

    It's a case of, unlike children who some prefer to be seen but not heard, adults who don't want you seen or heard.

    Tomboysuze, you may want to invite Father to meet you for dinner. He's been turned against you, you have made the right decision in resigning. Let him see you in a new light. In these situations, priests learn.
  • My son and I were both treated similarly in a previous parish. We were relatively new to the Catholic Church (3 years) and it was indeed shocking (part of our "baptism by fire" I believe). I had no context to deal with this, and I also needed to help my teenage son deal with the cruel injustice of it all, praying he would not become embittered against the Church. It took a long time to get to the place of forgiveness and peace. A "priest-emeritus" at the same parish helped me through this very difficult time.

    God has given you the grace to see the bigger picture. He will lead you the rest of the way.

    God bless you,
    Kathy
    Thanked by 2Claire H tomboysuze
  • Carl D., what do you suggest? Is there a business model that could apply to developing a relationship between pastor and musician to insure the project is moving in the direction he expects?
  • Claire H
    Posts: 369
    Somehow this thread is both piercingly painful and beautifully hopeful...somehow disheartening and heartening all at the same time. Tomboysuze, thank you for your witness. I am very moved by your posts and the effort it seems you are making to respond with grace instead of bitterness.

    Only through the gift of Faith can one have a supernatural response to betrayal, somehow find reasons to be grateful, and seek to grow from being "trampled upon".

    My prayers are with you!
    Thanked by 2tomboysuze CHGiffen
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    A great question, Noel!

    I would treat any "business arrangement" here with a fairly light touch. That's primarily because Priests don't typically think of themselves as running a business, even though in some senses they are. And others in the parish will look skeptically on mixing business logic and terminology into what they see as a ministry or calling.

    But the principles of business certainly apply. You deliver value for me, I deliver value for you, and we're both happy and want to continue to work together in the future.

    In the case of a parish, we need to recognize that the "value" is primarily not monetary, perhaps not even measurable in the traditional business sense. After all, it's not like you can count souls saved on your monthly balance sheet. ;-)

    Here's the principle, then: Sit down, and have a comprehensive discussion about what both of you need and desire. He needs to keep parishioners happy, and that's a respectable goal. You need to fulfill a passion and would like to achieve a vision, and that's respectable too. Then what you do is to find the intersection between these differing needs and wants, so that you can create a stable set of shared goals.

    All too often, and mentioned many times in this forum, I observe that there's goals we don't want to talk about, or have difficulty articulating. A Priest would declare that he wants to bring souls to salvation, but he also has other concerns like keeping people happy and satisfying his Bishop. What would happen if we talked to our Pastor about those things directly, rather than pushing them away as annoying and political?

    It's not an easy discussion, but it forms the basis for a lasting partnership.

    My 2¢. Blame it on Noel.
  • All good points, CarlD. And, Noel, thanks for bringing this up, because this is actually where this conversation has to go to be productive at this point, I think. Here's the scenario from the business perspective..and yes, I agree, a parish has to be run like a business - in some ways - and if the Pastor doesn't get that, it's a problem.

    I have a business background and since my husband is the Exec. VP of his company (the guy that actually runs the company) I have to deal with justifying my artistic pursuits to his business-model mind daily. At the outset, I told my Pastor that his plan was going to be impossible to realize in six months, but that I would try.

    The parish is going down without a major influx of cash-laden parishioners. After a year and half of waiting patiently, the Pastor changed the music and the mass times creating a "place" for Anglos in a parish that had been given over to the growing Hispanic population for 15 yrs...without pushing out the thriving, but not contributing Hispanic congregation. This was "extreme home makeover w/out the big budget. The hope was that we could siphon off overflow from the rich parish down the road that has so many well-heeled papists, they have to hold concurrent masses - one in the gym.

    So - I had to approach this project from two angles: 1. aesthetic/liturgical
    2. economically viable/marketing. (AND - it was no small thing to make sure the masses were far enough apart that parking lot was clearing out efficiently.)

    I had to have a cheap, but high quality "product" ready ASAP. . Before starting, I did
    a. "market research",
    b. had a trial period,
    c. wrote out a detailed proposal which included a budget and
    d. put together a very good staff for very little money.
    e. I requested a weekly meeting to make sure we stayed on the same page -and cleared everything I did with him.

    The project was actually working well, but needed more time for new parishioners to decide to make a financial commitment. We were, in fact, getting the demographic we had targeted; the educated Washington church goer who wants a deeper liturgical experience and very much needs the beauty of sacred music to calm down and enter into their interior life with God.

    I've literally gotten desperate texts from friends, panicked that we are ending this program because they need this hour of beauty to connect with God.

    Part of the problem is/was that Father didn't fully realize that things were going to get worse before they got better. During the period when the collections were thinner than they had been last year, there was a major transition taking place in the parish demographic. There's a business model (my husband told me about) called the "Greiner Curve" that forecasts crisis points for businesses that are actually experiencing growth. During the initial phase of a project that may ultimately be successful, there are dips that have to be navigated and are to be expected. (duh!)

    As we all know, when you're involved in anything risky, you have to be as cautious as possible, but in the end, you have sweat it out and give it time before you cut and run. I hope this doesn't offend, but I think they call it "having a pair." ;)
    I can only assume he was vulnerable to changing course because of the timing, the pressure from a faction and the $$$$. ...(and the missing pair.)

    But, for the record, in our last meeting, he did acknowledge, that I had exceeded expectations and the goals we set out initially.

    As cynical as it may sound, I had NO expectation that conversions or the souls of those that "tire and bleed" would even come into the equation. And in my conversations with him, they didn't, sadly. However, among the musicians, we talked about it constantly.
    (sigh)

    Nevertheless, I do think that we need to take a business lens to our profession and figure out how to make this line of work more stable and viable.

    There are things that can be done - but we need to develop guidelines, etc., and figure out how we can mount an education program that can be used in seminaries and parishes. Perhaps some time could be devoted to some of these topics at the Colloquium in the future.....the near future if more of us are to have any future at all.

    and that's my 5¢- blame froggie again....

    ps....I would like to sit down with the Pastor, but he won't even respond to my emails about anything....I have gone out to dinner with him in the past, but I don't think he's capable of having an honest conversation right now. Ever since he made that announcement, he's avoided all of us....even the mothers of my H.S. girls who are friends with him in another social environment.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • whoops...
  • I've been going through a lot of discouragement on my service in our parish, it's like I wanted to give up... But I realized why should I feel down when there are lots people believes in me than those who humiliate me. Through the warm love of people who are always there for me, I feel the presence of GOd in me...
    Thanked by 2tomboysuze CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,964
    I have my days when I am sure I would never work in a Catholic parish again, if my current job ends. I dream of Anglican fields with no trash music, decent salaries, and appreciative clergy. Reality sets in, and I realize they have problems, too.

    Tomboysuze, the best thing you could do, if possible, is move to a parish in the area and succeed in building a great music program. Take as many of your pastor's parishioners with you as you can. Leave him with his influential friends. The best revenge, I have found, is to leave your enemies in the dust and succeed without them.
    Thanked by 1tomboysuze
  • There are certainly no easy answers because while the Church is not a business it "does business"--it operates in the world but is not about worldly affairs. I don't think anyone can devise an effective "business model" for a parish because of this. So it is left to the individual worker in the parish to seek God's Will in all things. One can live with a measure of abuse (or persecution or just plain difficult circumstances) if there is a greater good (like others are truly being helped by remaining), but enduring abuse without a realization of good for others means, to me, it's time to go.

    Kathy
    Thanked by 2tomboysuze CHGiffen
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    Tomboysuze, I stand in awe of your careful planning and thinking through the many dimensions of your situation.

    Jesus told us that we would encounter many trials and tribulations, but also that He would be there with us on our difficult journeys. So despite all these difficulties, frustrations, and obstacles, our task is to stay focused on the salvation of ourselves and our fellow man.

    The gates of hell will not prevail, we were promised. Do we believe it?
    Thanked by 2tomboysuze CHGiffen
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    I've literally gotten desperate texts from friends, panicked that we are ending this program because they need this hour of beauty to connect with God.

    So why aren't they sharing their concerns with the pastor instead of you? At this point, isn't he the only one who can actually change anything? (difficult as even that would be.)
    Thanked by 2tomboysuze CHGiffen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    why aren't they sharing their concerns with the pastor instead of you?


    Perennial problem....
    Thanked by 2tomboysuze CHGiffen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,191
    Well, who knows? Maybe they are telling the pastor what they think.
    Thanked by 1tomboysuze
  • Guys - thanks so much for your profound empathy. It's truly saving me. But at this point, I hate for you to waste your time on this situation, because it's becoming quite bizarre. I expect to see Rod Serling in the choir loft this weekend.

    My Pastor is unfortunately, resolute in his arrogant unresponsiveness, even though we still work for him. AND, the rumor mill has kicked in and is alive and well, fueled by one or two other church musicians that are uninformed, uninvolved and barely know me, of course. Untrue gossip has gotten back to my staff and they came to rehearsal rather demoralized last night, after being put in a position where they had to defend themselves, our program and me. However, they were fierce and undaunted!

    Since I've refused to engage in musical pandering, I am now being second-guessed by neophytes. O well. Praying for a last weekend of peaceful, beautiful, Lenten liturgies and fully expect that God will shelter us from the storm to the extent that we need it.

    So, yes, CarlD - your challenge is actually a comfort. I believe He will be as He always is, 'my refuge and my strength.' (And thank you for your kind words - I did try to plan well, but had no idea that I'd be working in the Twilight Zone. I'll know better next time, hopefully.)

    @ Marajoy - there have apparently been a good number of people that have told the Pastor how important this music program is to them. Sadly, I don't think it makes any difference. It's over.

    So, wanted to pass along this beautiful, soothing hymn from that master of our craft,
    Dr. Marier. I'm putting it in this weekend for pastoral reasons. ;) Enjoy and many, many, many thanks.

    Safe In the Hands of God who made me,
    Where is the man whom I should fear?
    God is my light and my protection
    Strong is His help, when foes are near.

    This I have prayed and will seek after.
    That I may walk with God each day.
    Then will He give me His protection.
    No trouble shall my heart dismay.

    Thanks be to God who held my head high,
    Father and mother now to me,
    Since he has conquered threats and malice,
    His goodness shall I live to see.

    Teach me your way and lead me onwards,
    Save me from those who do me wrong.
    Give me the grace to wait with patience,
    I hope in God. Hold firm. Be strong.


    imageimage
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • You can never go wrong in thinking the best of others. Recalling the words of St. Bernard of Clairvaux:
    "Even if you should see your neighbor doing what is wrong, refuse to pass judgment on him, excuse him instead. Excuse his intention even if you cannot excuse his act which may be the fruit of ignorance or surprise or chance. If the thing is so baltant that it cannot be denied, even so, believe it to be so, and say inwardly: the temptation must have been very strong." On the Song of Songs, Voll II, Sermon 40
  • Another reason for the squelching of a successful music program is purely financial. The more involved a person becomes in parish activities, the higher the probability they will contribute on a regular basis.

    Each new choir member you recruit from outside the parish becomes an addition to the choir, but also a possible financial supporter of the parish. Choir involvement by parish members may also influence them to raise the amount they give. But this can work against you.

    Bringing in outsiders would seem to be a good thing, but insiders with access to the financial records can and do fear people who join and become more than average donors. I was blessed to have a couple of new people come from other parishes and I know that they made gifts to the church of more than my salary each year...add that to what the other 30 new people donated and there was a considerable bump in the income.

    However, people in the know can and will then work to get rid of these people and you to get rid of the threat they provide to the power structure in the parish. These weak and misguided people you can identify by their need to be seen and heard - often will be cantors as well as officers in other groups and should be feared.

    We can be, to them, Trojans bearing gifts.

    If they do not get to sing all the solos and get the respect they have demanded in the past, expect bows and arrows. Many of the new people you attract can and will be goodhearted, humble people and they are good targets....to paraphrase POGO, "We have met the enemy and he is bad hearted and mean."
  • Wow. That's exactly right. The Deacon has a booming bass voice and was used to singing the Kyrie (?) and was ticked when we got there. He admitted that he's been working against us. Ironic though, his son is applying to CUA as a voice major to sing exactly the kind of music we're doing while he's been hard at work to spread anonymous rumors against us from "supposed people who confided to him but didn't want their name used." Talk about shooting your kid in the foot!

    That these anonymous complaints were even taken seriously just shows you that we are in the Twilight Zone. Reason, logic and propriety...I miss you!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Tomboysuze, don't give up on your efforts to bring good quality music to the church. You are going to have bumps in the road, we all do. Anyone who follows the way of Christ, will certainly have to confront trials and tribulations over and over. You just have to remember, your music and enthusiasm will have touched souls, and it could just be because of that, that lives have been changed for the positive.

    Over the years, I have seen first hand the positive effects I have had on parishioners, colleagues, and choir members, despite no longer being situated at the former church I was at for many years. I get calls from former choir members wanting to chat, or having questions about music. The new director calls from time to time to ask advice and chat. Just continue having faith that you are needed somewhere else, and where that door is closing, another is defintiely opening up.

    I would keep that group you have established, rehearsing and preparing for something else. You have so much already invested in them, and someone is bound to hear about you guys, and desire to have you come in and do something. You are in my continued prayers!
    Thanked by 2tomboysuze CHGiffen
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    TBS, you know regarding the whole schmeer, I'm among your adoring supporters. I did notice a small item that might be examined more and saved, if that's still possible. The invocations/petitions of the "Kryie" are regarded by more astute deacons, pastors and bishops as the provenance of the deacon. So what was missed in the conversation was the why and how "your coming along into the program" displaced him, causing the tension? If he is possessed of fine voice, was it the manner, the style, the choice of setting, or just a deliberated switch of gears that happened? Very few deacons (and we now have a plethora) are musically inclined. So, it seems to me he could be "flipped" to an ally if not already too late.
    Thanked by 2tomboysuze CHGiffen
  • Melo! Adoring! You dog, you, so kind!

    Well, you're right. We did flip him. But he was ticked that he wasn't calling the shots anymore....and to be honest, I've never encountered a Deacon that sang the Kyrie. I will have to read up on that.. thanks. I did have him sing the Proclamation on Christmas Eve and he did a good job and, I praised him in public! I was also amazed after we did the confirmation - his son was in the class - he came up to me at the reception and said, in his booming voice, "You guys did a great job! Thank you." I thought, yes! we're going to be here for a while....but, alas, I'm pretty sure the "good" Father has already hired someone. And...rumor is that it's colleague of mine! (cue the Twilight Zone theme-song...)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,191
    Just had to look that up!

    The rubrics in the Penitential Rite, third option (Kyrie with tropes) say:

    "The Priest, or a Deacon, or another minister, then says the following...
    You were sent to heal the contrite of heart..."

    So perhaps it's fair to say that there is a preference for the Priest or Deacon to lead this part.
    Thanked by 1tomboysuze
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Well Richard, I didn't infer a rubric, just an observation of that order you've cited, and that some bishops and pastors are more pro-active than others to have deacon's more than less engaged in liturgical duties at a Sunday Mass. And in that so few, in my experience as in TBS's, avail themselves of those opportunities, I just let it float there for consideration. If we do the heirarchy thingy for GIRM options, it is reasonable that consistency in interpreting these other "red" items would follow.
  • Thanks, men. That is just the point I wondered about.

    Short Postlude:

    --Everyone felt somewhat queasy about the whole thing as we did the vigil mass and the vibe in the church was strange -- but we went, we sang, we conquered ourselves.
    --I programmed "Forgive Our Sins As We Forgive" as the Entrance - a fact that was not lost on folks.
    --The liturgies were reverent, and quietly beautiful (I thought).
    --The church was crowded at all masses.
    --Father made the "requisite thank you announcement"at all masses. At the last mass he sounded very relieved.
    --There were about 300 people at the main choir mass who were shocked, sad, surprised, sorry, confused.
    --We were applauded for a long time at all masses - N.B. I dislike applause in church very much, but that was very kind.

    We sang "Oh The Mystery Passing Wonder" by LeBlanc, which was sublime....and pretty well done. And we did Mass of the English Martyrs - SAT and some B by my 15 yr. old son and the volunteer parishioner who has diligently worked to get better and better.

    And, after mass, people were working on Father to keep us for at least one mass and stopping us to talk and were shocked to learn that we had offered to stay and discount our fees, etc. etc. --Father was caught in his half-truths by a few and looked uncomfortable as he unsuccessfully tried to steer public questions and conversations back to the sacristy---


    It was, thankfully, joyful and peaceful at the end of mass - and then choir, friends and kids/families sat around my house most of Sunday for a long brunch and drinking coffee, mimosas and at least two people got into the good Scotch w/ my liturgically-PTSD'd husband.

    But I wasn't one of them!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Well done, lassie! As an old Scots, I also inexplicably am adverse to imbibing in the venerable single malts of any age.
    There's such a temptation of late, from near and afar, to want to vex a "pox on all your houses" at clergy of all levels, but your example reminds us, viscerally, "in all things, charity."
    God bless you and your staff as you'll, in Spanish they say, "adelante."
    Thanked by 1tomboysuze
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    Congratulations on maintaining your dignity in a tough and emotional situation! Trust God to lead you to the right next place.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomboysuze
  • tomboysuzetomboysuze
    Posts: 289
    I'm more grateful to all of you kindred spirits than I can say.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen