Schola Size; How many are enough?
  • mattcavoto
    Posts: 25
    Post removed by author
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    There is nothing I have seen in any of the modern books, so the logical conclusion follows:

    1 is a cantor. 2 is a schola.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,609
    It is permissible for 2 to cantor, but not for 1 to schola.
    Thanked by 2francis E_A_Fulhorst
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    Official Church teaching? Boy, I hope she is not so pedantic as to give a number.

    I, on the other hand, have no problem being pedantic. I'd say you'd need at least "a few." (Read: at least 3). If you need a citation, write "that one forum post that Andy gave his opinion on."
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,391
    When a perfect unison of voices on every last pitch and vowel begins to disappear, it is time to start a second schola. (Or, to do some weeding.)
  • Chris HebardChris Hebard
    Posts: 124
    The rubrics for the Improperia in the Gregorian Missal (1990):
    The cantors on each side of the choir alternate in singing the couplets, whereas the Greek and Latin portions of the refrain are alternated between the two sides of the choir.
    Rubrics for the Gloria:
    It can be alternated between cantors and choir or between the two sides of the choir.
    My opinion: four singers minimum.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I stand corrected! Looks like the gregorian missal (a modern book) mentions, at least vaguely, numbers of singers.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    So, if you're doing the Improperia, 4 is necessary. Otherwise, 2 is fine. ;-)
  • mattcavoto
    Posts: 25
    Post removed by author
    Thanked by 1expeditus1
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,466
    Technically, you have to have at least a few, but up to a handful is allowed.
    http://xkcd.com/1070/
    Thanked by 3DougS M. Jackson Osborn E_A_Fulhorst
  • Arthur Connick
    Posts: 496
    For the TLM (EF), the minimum requirement is one singer, otherwise it is forbidden to have a sung Mass. The indications in the Liber represent the preferred numbers, but note that these are in relation to a vested choir. A bunch of laymen, whether dressed in cassocks or not, is filling in for the real liturgical choir. Since they are already making up for what is lacking, so to speak, I wouldn't get hung up on the numbers from a rubrical standpoint. Rather the focus should be on whether a smaller number of singers can sing the chants with beauty appropriate for the liturgy.
    Thanked by 2Richard Mix E_A_Fulhorst
  • ScottKChicago
    Posts: 349
    I remember a choir director some years ago being concerned that there be an odd number of singers in a small schola we were forming, as an even number could have intonation problems but the additional singer's voice would somehow acoustically "break the tie" and help average things out. That seems somewhat mythical/mystical, but perhaps there's something to it if we're talking three singers rather than two? I think this effect, if it's an actual thing, would be lessened with a larger group. Two singers can be out of tune just slightly, and a third would help, depending on the acoustics of the space. Or something.
  • rogue63
    Posts: 410
    My schola has run from 4-7 members over the past few years. I agree MJO's observation above: musical clarity should be the determining factor, if all rubrical requirements are fulfilled. Although some of us have difficulty achieving a perfect unison in the first place!
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,478
    As many as possible who can hold a good pitch.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,391
    I don't know whether to be amused or befuddled and perplexed at the overweaning concern for 'rules' for this that and the other, even for the numbers of persons who can be in a schola or a choir. Is there, astonishingly, actual legislation for such? With respect for the seeming sincerity of those who ask these questions, I cannot but be reminded of tales about certain Jews who tear off pieces of TP before the Sabbath so that they won't have to 'work' by tearing toilet tissue on the Holy Day. (Laws ad absurdam) How many people can be in a schola? As many (or as few) of those as whose talents will enable it to fullill its duties with artful musicianship and a prayerful heart. .
    Thanked by 5Spriggo Gavin CHGiffen SkirpR Adam Wood
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    Remember, that the Rules for one, two or four cantors based on the degree of festivity are mere recommendations, if the number of cantors is sufficient. The rubrics for the Improperia suppose a choir of four cantors; in parish churches however one would most likely follow not the Missale Romanum but the Memoriale Rituum, which describes how to offer the services of Candlemas, Palm Sunday and the Triduum with only one Priest and acolythes; this book presumes no chant at all, but chant can be used to make it more solemn.

    So there are rules for choirs on the number of cantors, but these rules are not binding, if there aren't enough singers. Of course one can have Sung Mass with only one chanter in the schola, as I have done several times myself.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen ClemensRomanus
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,609
    When dealing with a parish priest who is fearful of anything that might rile people up, being able to point at something in print that validates calling a group of three singers a Scola is PRICELESS.

    We must continually face that when people ask questions here we do not know what is behind the question, but must instead assume that they are here for good reasons.
    Thanked by 3E_A_Fulhorst mattcavoto francis
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,466
    frognoel makes a good point, and/but I think we need balance in that regard.

    It would be uncharitable and unhelpful to constantly berate people with "that's a ridiculous question!", but on the other hand, it is both charitable and helpful (in my opinion) to spread the good news that liturgy isn't, in fact, primarily about rules and rubrics. Some of the people asking ridiculous questions probably know that they are ridiculous, and are asking because they need support in dealing with some ridiculous rubricist somewhere else. Others are likely unaware that they are laboring under an overly-legalistic view of liturgy and the church, and if this burden can be lifted from them without making them feel stupid about it, that's a worthwhile act.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,609
    Could you say that in 25 words or less? I like it.
  • Arthur Connick
    Posts: 496
    I like Adam's sentiment too, but in an important respect his formulation is wrong: "rubrics and liturgy" are in fact the foundation of the liturgy. Leaving aside the sociological question of how the Church could have formal worship without rules, in the theology of the liturgy these rules come from Christ himself. God teaches us how to worship him in "spirit and truth", and doing it the right way is inseparable from understanding.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn francis
  • mattcavoto
    Posts: 25
    Post removed by author
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • francis
    Posts: 10,761
    rules are good, but if we are not careful, can also lead us down rabbit holes. i try to apply ALL of them whenever possible (soley if the pastor is behind me. otherwise obedience is crucial) this applies even moreso to my bishop. i only wish clergy acted the same toward their bishop.
  • lautzef
    Posts: 69
    Also remember in quoting older sources of information or good practice, that in 1961 (or 1861, 1761, etc.) they had large numbers not only of clergy (so, for example the rules about how many masses a priest could celebrate in one day were very easy to follow), but also large numbers of people available for singing in choirs, both among the regular clergy and lay people. They did enjoy the luxury of having two cantors starting a piece of chant, and two sizable choirs to answer each other - nowadays it's more likely to be one person starting and the other one joining in. Thank you, M. Jackson Osborn, for your comment on moderation. One can get much too involved with documents, regulations, precedents, etc. and forget the important part. The traditional Latin mass was fashioned so that it would work with a tiny group hiding from persecution in a hut or an enormous crowd of thousands in a Roman basilica. Just do what you can.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen ClemensRomanus
  • john m
    Posts: 136
    Enough so that on the weekend when V is in Mexico, W has bronchitis, X is away for a family wedding, Y forgot to reset the alarm clock for daylight savings time, and Z thought it was the 31st Sunday not the 32nd, you still have a Schola.
    Thanked by 1ryand
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