Cantor, one must take into account the modern sense of group singing in this case. People are quite comfortable singing along with the radio or singing on the choruses of their favorite songs at concerts. In the case of the contemporary ensemble, even with mics, the folks will sing the parts they know and are comfortable with. I don't think practical question really applies with this group. You sound like you have come to the point of wondering if the ensemble is a proper means of providing and supporting liturgical music. That's an honest and difficult question to ask. There are devoted and intelligent people who truly believe that popular music is a true parallel to the modern music of ages past. Historically, this is true statement since the late 19th century and beyond has been the Age of Popular Music (not to be confused with folk traditions of centuries past, which have always been closely tied to cultural identity and have many uses outside of entertainment). The use of popular music in worship during our time is a perfectly understandable extension of our artistic age although it may not be in many of our minds, desirable. It would actually have been quite a miracle had pop music not entered the church. That said, I do believe the pop music experiment, like the operatic music experiment of the 17th-18th centuries, has been a failed one on several levels.

1. Popular music is intended to convey/recall surface emotion with ease (if it wants to be sucessful).

2. Popular music is disposable music, meant to be enjoyed for a time and then replaced by the next "big thing."

3. Popular music is a commercial music, intended to move money from purchasers to creators and distributors, hence the need for continuous turnover.

4. The artistic side of popular music tends towards novelty and contemporaneity as the prized elements.

I think that, for at least these 4 reasons, we must move away from popular music as a liturgical music, which in many of these cases needs to function in the polar opposite sphere (deep, mysterious emotions; permanence of use; non-commercial; and the careful application of novelty).

If you want to disband the popular music ensemble on the above grounds, I think you have a strong case. On the practical side you will always be fighting the culture the views "pastoral" as giving folks what they want rather than shepherding them to what they need. Only you know your situation on the ground there and I'm sure you would be understanding of the popular group's gifts and (perceived) contributions there over the years. It's a tough thing to do, but I would not use practical matters as your principal argument. People will see it as an excuse and a less-than-honest reason (even if it is not). Good luck.

Just out of curiosity, what is your definition of "choral music"? You (Cantor and incantu, anyhow; I don't see it explicitly in Michael's comment) seem to derive your definition of "choir" from its music, whereas I think an equally good case can be made for the contrary definition of "choral music" by the fact that it is sung (or meant to be sung) by choirs. Without a bit more explicit definition of either "choir" or "choral music" (let alone the semantically squishy "contemporary") it's hard for me to tell to what degree I agree with, or am even able to engage, your position.

Leland

There is lots of gray area in this matter; a more capable congregation could consider more music to be “congregational” and less to be necessarily “choral”. But, let’s assume that there is a standard out there that averages out what a congregation is normally capable of doing.

I propose the following criteria:

1) Polyphonic textures constitute choral music--with the possible exception of rounds and canons.

2) Melodies that are too technically challenging for the congregation are choral music--for example, any of the vocal lines of the “Cum sancto” fugue of the B minor Mass.

3) Melodies whose intervals are too challenging for the congregation to sing easily are choral music.

4) Melodies with overly challenging rhythms for the congregation are choral music.

By these criteria, I think we can safely set, say, Berger “The Eyes of All” in the realm of choral music. These criteria also place most Gregorian chant Mass propers in the realm of choral music.

Comments? Additional criteria, or modifications to these? I am sure there are some loopholes here....anyone going to find them?

In the context of the liturgy, the role of the choir could be understood to be that of singing the parts of the liturgy (e.g. the Propers) that are too difficult to be rendered effectively by the congregation. The importance of the choir is therefore inversely proportional to the ability of the congregation. If the whole congregation sang the entire liturgy (as might be the case, for example, in a monastic community), a designated choir would not be necessary. By observing common practice, however, one might be led to believe that the reverse is true. Music directors don't look at the music required by the liturgy and say "OK, now who's going to sing this part." No, they look at the vocal ensemble (the kind described above) and say "Now what are we going to give them to sing?" In the case of the many unskilled ensemble, or directors who don't understand what singing in the liturgy is all about, this amounts to choosing arrangements of ostensibly congregational songs, that the congregation doesn't actually sing. In many cases we would be far better off without such "choirs," with two alternatives being 1) the assembly actually participating in congregational music unimpeded by a vocal ensemble or 2) choral compositions on liturgical texts being sung by an actual choir.

Cantor, I'm not sure I see your point. I would not call Bach's cantatas "arrangements" just because they quote existing material. For the pure four-part chorales, I would say they are harmonizations, yes, but they are not utilitarian. If they were, he would not have felt the need to reharmonize a tune every time he used it. Now, when one of these harmonizations is sung by a congregation transposed down a third and with the organ playing the choir parts, well then that's an arrangement. In that case I think you could say it was no longer choral music, because the musical idea that the composer wished to express through the medium of a choir has been lost. In either case, the choir would sing choral music, not congregational music. And, as in my example, the competent music director would not look at a Bach chorale and say "Now who is going to sing this?" and then decide what key it should be performed in, because a Bach chorale is not a part of the Mass in the first place.

But why would anyone who knows something about liturgical music have anything to do with these contemporary ensembles? The more I learn, the less tolerant of contemporary ensembles I become. They've had their experiment. It's time to gradually wean parishes off them. Don't get me wrong, I'd be the first to grab my bass and play for an event outside of Mass, but it's time to graciously show them the church door.

Gavin,

I don't always agree with you....but you've got this one right....move the self-centered praise music to prayer services...the music is much more suitable for that purpose...and they will stop playing.

Some/many of these groups exist only because they "have to go to Mass" and might as well enjoy themselves while they are there....

priorstf, Absolutely not. By having the chant schola perform for something like this, you undermine the basic argument of the reform. I would politely decline and say, chant is liturgical music. It fulfills that role superbly, but it is not a very good entertainment. It would seem a "fish out of water" following up a chorus from Godspell. The alternative might be to work on some interesting medieval polyphony in 2-3 parts. That would hold up better in a performance situation.

I agree. My parish is celebrating its 100th anniversary. For a large outdoor breakfast, the head of the centenary committe asked if one of our church musicians could play "dinner" music during the breakfast. The pastor said, "absolutely not!" He told her we were liturgical musicians and had a sacred function. To play for something like the breakfast would be demeaning and he wouldn't allow it.

I can see what the pastor is getting at. It's probably a matter of image. I don't want the congregation to view me as a cocktail pianist, which I am not, and have never been. It's not a bad thing for the congregation to have the image of us as special and set aside for holy things. The bigger battle is trying to get across the image that the church is not the world. That when they enter the church door, they are in another place that is in the world, but not of it. As the envoys reported to Vladimir after visiting the great church in Constantinople, "We no longer knew whether we were in heaven or on earth." That's what people should feel when leaving church, but sad to say, most do not.

I too have to disagree with the pastor who did not want church musicians at the breakfast. This type of playing and even singing has long and venerable tradition. Popes, Cardinals, and Bishops used to have ensembles sing sacred motets as they dined during the Renaissance. That said, I wouldn't have any sacred played in a situation where people were not expected to pay attention, but this event would be the perfect chance for the contemporary ensemble to play its music. Its entirely appropriate. My 2c

On the other hand isn't CharlesW's parish Byzantine? Maybe their musicians are consecrated virgins (of a sort). ;-)

Leland

Oh this reminds me of something. Early on, before our schola was singing at Mass, our former pastor, in an attempt to keep us out, suggested that instead we put on a seasonal concert in the social hall, a concert of chant and polyphony. Just the suggestion infuriated me actually.

But then later, as I began to think about it, I realized that he was responding sincerely. He had come to believe that the reason we wanted to sing at Mass was that we wanted a performance venue. He is not to be faulted for believing this since every musician at every other Mass was treating the Mass as a performance venue. As we know, this is what most Catholic musicians in fact are these days: frustrated performers who can't get paid gigs anywhere else. So he just assumed that we wanted the same thing, some place to show off our skills. He probably believed that he was being accommodating.

Of course we completely refused, pointing out that he missed the central point completely.

The realization that music and liturgy are part of each other, and that music is not there merely to entertain, requires a real adjustment on the part of pastors as well.

My view of it is, if you have the ability to perform music, why not do so? I'm not a "cocktail" player, I have a rudimentary understanding of jazz but no ability. But if I did have the ability, I'd be glad to perform for a parish breakfast or whatever. As someone said above, we don't have consecrated hands and voices to only touch the ivory of an organ and sing chant. Don't take yourself too seriously, it's not good for your image in the community, your professional reputation, or your sanity.

I should add, IF someone were to invite a contemporary/folk ensemble to perform (or for another idea, what about a "folk vespers"?) they should also have an open and personal invitation for the members to perform at Mass with the schola or main choir. At my last parish, a few of the guys from the guitar group were asked to sing with an impromptu schola, and they loved it. It need not be an offense, as some may see through the deception of it.

Did I mention this year's entrance hymn on Palm Sunday? (I only wish I were kidding.) We indeed prepared ye the way of the Lord.

That is entirely inappropriate! Everyone knows "Prepare Ye The Way Of The Lord" is supposed to be sung during Advent.

Your comment provides good food for thought, Carl D. The festival takes place on the weekend of First Friday. Perhaps we should throw open the nave for the monthly Vespers service (sung by the Schola) for people who would like a half hour of relative peace!

I'll play Gershwin when asked on the piano and "Three Coins in the Fountain" on the harp, if you pay me. If you have the kind of schola that has RenFaire abilities and repertoire, do a set at the parish festival. Or a few humerous (and clean) madrigals and catches. Otherwise, save your voices for Sunday.