A Survey of Bishops
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Benedictgal's attempts to clarify things with her letter writing leads me to something that might be very useful by us but also by priests.

    I propose that a survey be created and sent directly to Bishops throughout the USA and in other countries as well.

    Questions should be clear and concise and be about music and liturgy...

    It would be useful to ask how many EF Masses are offered weekly in their kingdoms...diocese.

    How many of them appear at prime time?

    If the number is below average or 0, How is it possible for the Bishop to decide that the EF is not "the mass" and that only the "true mass" and its attendant musical problems, the OF, is "the mass."

    Does the parish priest have the option of saying Mass in Latin or not....OF or EF?

    Is chant encouraged or discouraged?

    Is the music in his diocese the same or different since he was ordained a priest?

    Is the music in his diocese different since he was installed?

    Does the Cathedral lead the diocese in its liturgy and music and how much chant and how often are the propers sung there?

    It is easier to get the priests in line if the Bishops themselves lead....being able to post a chart of responses, especially those who fail to respond, would be useful information for Rome.
    Thanked by 1benedictgal
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Yeah, this'll go over well. They'll open the letter and see this:
    "Dear Bishop, Please answer the questions on this survey so that we can complain to Rome about you. Love, Froggy"

    Look, if you really want information, you can get counts and schedules of regularly scheduled celebrations of the EF from lay sources such as "Una Voce" or from the "Latin Mass Network" web site (though the latter sometimes has outdated info).

    Second, what's the question about the option of saying OF or EF about? "Summorum Pontificum" settled that.

    And what are you talking about here:
    If the number is below average or 0, How is it possible for the Bishop to decide that the EF is not "the mass" and that only the "true mass" and its attendant musical problems, the OF, is "the mass."


    You might get more useful information by asking forum members from the 200+ dioceses to answer the questions.
    Thanked by 4noel jones, aago CHGiffen E_A_Fulhorst Gavin
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Most bishops will not respond. Some, like the one up north who is in favor of chant, will, and become by doing so, a leader. It is difficult for a priest who wants chant and latin in the liturgy to deal with the abuse put upon him by brother priests. Is it not also with bishops?

    The TLM and Anglican-Use are being suppressed in many diocese by bishops. I can understand giving them the right to permit them where there is interest, but not to right to suppress them where there is interest. I know of a former Episcopal priest turned RC who was told by the bishop and chancellor to proceed are starting an AC parish....only to have every request and report since then be, "Oh, yes, we want it, just not now...."

    There is no intent to complain to Rome. Rather, the information should be made public. I'm quite sure that Rome would be interested. (I am aware of a priest who got a call that earlier that day in Rome the Pope had been looking through a magazine that described the church he was building.) An honest survey, of all things, would assist those considering job opportunities in evaluating whether moving to that diocese would be a good move or not.

    Has the music stayed the same, gotten worse or better in the experience of a bishop. I'd like to know that.
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Like frogman said, it would have to be worded correctly.
    If the this is put out as a simple questionnaire on CMAA letterhead and the wording was not threatening but informational, then it just might work.
    I would simple ask about EF and OF, latin, English, Spanish or other.
    I would also ask if a program is in place to train parish music ministries and what the program is.

    It could be more of pole.
    Thanked by 2noel jones, aago benedictgal
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    And, they, or their chancellor who opens and scans the letters that come in, will know a bit more about CMAA.

    And, I would not use the personal, Froggy, but the formal, Frogster.

    Of course, I would sign it along with others as asked, but feel that this should come from the leadership of the CMAA, >•<, for example.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    Are we talking *Catholic* bishops? Catholic Bishops, like other monarchs, don't answer no stinkin' surveys, especially anything that is potentially public. The very existence of such a survey implies that they are accountable to the surveyor in some way, and that in no way could be countenanced. And they don't let their flunkies answer them for them either.
    Thanked by 2chonak CHGiffen
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    And I thought I had attitude! Now I've gone and crushed the Classic Lays chips in the photo!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    I am told that individual bishops are inundated with paper from USCCB committees, among others. If so, a new piece of paper would likely be tossed in many chanceries.
    Thanked by 1E_A_Fulhorst
  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    I know that in my case, the music has gotten quite worse at the Cathedral since the erection of our diocese. The Mariachis are in full swing and some sort of group, Amigos de Jesus, "performs" at a couple of the diocesan Masses. The female organist/vocalist who sits on the diocesan committee did not want to use the ICEL settings at my Aunt's funeral because she thought they were too hard to learn. Instead, we got treated to more of the OCP drek. Of course, her usual repertoire for funerals is "Eagles Wings", "Here I am Lord" and "Be Not Afraid."
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    Recently someone I know talked to a representative of my diocese who told her that they don't deal with lay people. Interesting.
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    I once wrote a kind and respectful letter to our bishop asking if he would serve as celebrant at our wedding, which was at the cathedral. He wrote a nice personal reply declining the invitation and gave a good reason for it (out of town, which turned out to be true).

    Depends on the bishop, I guess, and maybe how you approach him. I imagine people make many *demands* of bishops that get ignored, and rightly so.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    I went to Mass at the Cathedral here in Columbus, yesterday. I heard the proper Introit and Communio sung picture-perfectly from the Graduale Romanum. I also heard motets by Byrd and Mawby, organ pieces by Franck and Widor, two parts of the Ordinary chanted (Gloria in Latin, Agnus Dei in English), two very good hymns, and some dialogues chanted by the Deacon/congregation. A very edifying experience.
    Thanked by 6DougS noel jones, aago Gavin marajoy BruceL CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Recently someone I know talked to a representative of my diocese who told her that they don't deal with lay people. Interesting.


    So, TCJ, here is what you do. Go to a bank and pick up a counter check. Don't put an account number or your name on it. Write it to the diocese for a significant amount, then sign it, "Lay Person." Put it in the diocesan collection or mail it to them.
    Thanked by 6benedictgal Liam Jahaza Gavin DougS CHGiffen
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 470
    Righto, CharlesW. We were told at one point that something we had asked for had been rejected because some of the askers lived outside the Archdiocese of New York (i.e. they lived in other parts of the metropolitan area like Brooklyn, Queens, and NJ.) Doesn't stop them from sending us solicitations for the annual Archdiocesan appeal though!
    Thanked by 2benedictgal Gavin
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    But MatthewJ, did a cantor raise their arms? Were there extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion? Was there a sign of peace exchanged?

    If any of these things happened, it was actually a horrible Mass, or so many commentators would have us believe.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Adam Schwend
    Posts: 203
    Frogman, I sympathize with your idea...but I just don't think it would be effective.

    1. Bishops who don't sympathize would probably simply ignore our request for information. Much like politicians only respond to surveys they think would help them, I doubt a bishop would fill anything out that could be used to beat them with.

    2. Bishops who did respond we probably wouldn't be surprised with. Episcopal actions are well known by most of us who watch the Church...I highly doubt we'd find any surprises.

    3. Bishops are insanely busy. Having worked in a chancery before, I remember being absolutely amazed by the amount of work the bishop had to perform, not even including liturgical duties...There may be very good bishops who greatly sympathize with our cause who would simply look at it and say "no time". Or they would delegate it to their office of worship, who may or may not be of like mind with the bishop.

    I like the idea of knowing precisely if a bishop is with us or against us....but I just don't think it's really feasible...
  • rob
    Posts: 148
    But, why we should care to know, precisely, whether a bishop is "with us or against us"? I'd much prefer an adversary who had, at least, the decency to speak against me behind my back.
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