When is the Kyrie omitted?
  • SJBCmusic
    Posts: 36
    I know this topic has come up in other threads, but I thought it deserved its own.

    As far I can tell, there should be a Kyrie at every Mass, either by itself or as part of the Penitential Act, with the following exceptions:
    1. At a stational Mass in Lent ("if appropriate")
    2. At the Palm Sunday Mass following the procession or solemn entrance ("if appropriate")
    3. At the Easter Vigil
    4. At the Pentecost Vigil ("if appropriate")
    5. At Sunday Masses at which the Sprinkling Rite takes place
    6. At the ritual Mass for the conferral of baptism
    7. At the funeral Mass after the remains of the deceased have been sprinkled

    So, the Kyrie is omitted when the sacrament of baptism or some form of a sprinkling rite takes place, when the Litany is sung (which includes its own Kyrie), or, optionally, when Mass is preceded by a procession. At all other Masses, should there be a Kyrie even if the Penitential Act is omitted, according to rubric no. 7 of the Order of Mass:
    The Kyrie, eleison (Lord, have mercy) invocations follow, unless they have just occurred in a formula of the Penitential Act.

    or should GIRM 52 be followed:
    After the Penitential Act, the Kyrie, eleison (Lord, have mercy), is always begun, unless it has already been part of the Penitential Act. Since it is a chant by which the faithful acclaim the Lord and implore his mercy, it is usually executed by everyone, that is to say, with the people and the choir or cantor taking part in it.

    Each acclamation is usually pronounced twice, though it is not to be excluded that it be repeated several times, by reason of the character of the various languages, as well as of the artistry of the music or of other circumstances. When the Kyrie is sung as a part of the Penitential Act, a “trope” precedes each acclamation.

    How can the Kyrie be begun after the Penitential Act if there is no Penitential Act?

    On the other hand, the Mass for the Conferral of Baptism is the only ritual Mass that explicitly mentions the omission of the Kyrie:
    In this Mass, the Penitential Act, the Kyrie and the Creed are omitted. The Gloria in excelsis (Glory to God in the highest), however, is said.

    The Nuptial Mass has the following:
    The Penitential Act is omitted. The Gloria in excelsis (Glory to God in the highest) is said.

    Is there a Kyrie after the non-existent Penitential Act or not?
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/7242/kyrie-when-penitential-rite-is-omitted/p1
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    Is there a Kyrie after the non-existent Penitential Act or not?

    According to the actual text of the Missal, yes. YMMV concerning your pastor, office of worship, or Supreme Pontiff.
  • SJBCmusic
    Posts: 36
    Thanks, Andrew. I remembered seeing that thread before but couldn't find it while ago. It seems that the Nuptial Mass is the only scenario where this is an unresolved issue.
  • OlbashOlbash
    Posts: 314
    Also pretty sure it's omitted on Ash Wednesday, since the imposition of ashes is, in itself, a penitential rite.
  • Chris AllenChris Allen
    Posts: 150
    The Kyrie can also be omitted if Lauds immediately precedes Mass (General Instruction of the Liturgy of the Hours 94).
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    Also pretty sure it's omitted on Ash Wednesday, since the imposition of ashes is, in itself, a penitential rite.

    That's really the big discussion: is the Kyrie part of the Penitential Act, or its own distinct thing? Following only the text in the Missal and GIRM, it's its own thing, so it is still done even when the Penitential Act is omitted.

    Yes, that's reading the texts in a vacuum, but there it is.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,185
    The Kyrie is omitted when the celebrant unexpectedly uses the confiteor and the musicians don't notice and launch into the Gloria right after the absolution.
    Thanked by 9Andrew Motyka Wendi expeditus1 Earl_Grey donr Jenny kevinf IanW Casavant Organist
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    Similarly, the Gloria is also omitted whenever the presider jumps to the collect after an extended impromptu greeting. :)
    Thanked by 2gregp Gavin
  • SJBCmusic
    Posts: 36
    ZENIT's Fr. Edward McNamara weighs in here.
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    In the EF, the Gloria is omitted when the priest forgets to intone it. Conversely, it is sung when the priest intones it. ;-)

    Both situations have happened to us, the second in Advent two years ago.
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 470
    In the EF ... Conversely, it is sung when the priest intones it. ;-)

    Hmm... as an MC, I'd rather the choir not multiply the mistake. I've had a celebrant start the Credo without preaching the homily first and it was much better that we just stopped, did the homily and did the Credo in the correct place. (I recall that I've also had a celebrant intone the Gloria in violet vestments, but I don't recall what the choir did.)
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,477
    I seem to recall an anecdote of a priest intoning the Gloria during Advent, and the choirmaster chanting back (in Latin) the instruction from the Missal: The Gloria is not sung in Advent.

    (As usual, this story would be more interesting if I could remember any specifics.)
    Thanked by 2Jahaza IanW
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    It's a classic story:
    Priest chants: "Gloria in excelsis Deo:"
    Organist chants: "In Adventu Gloria non dicitur."
    Priest pauses; then turns to the people: "Oremus."
    Thanked by 6Liam Adam Wood ryand IanW BruceL Chris Allen
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    Just to add more information (which, in most circumstances, clarifies rather than making things fuzzier, but this is the Catholic Church), The Ceremonial of Bishops on Ash Wednesday:

    #255 ...The introductory rites of the Mass and, as circumstances suggest, also the Kyrie are omitted, and the bishop immediately says the opening prayer.

    2 additional questions:

    1.Is this in force since the new Missal has been promulgated, along with its revised GIRM?

    2. "As circumstances suggest?" Really? Could you perhaps be a bit more vague as to your intentions?
  • Chris HebardChris Hebard
    Posts: 124

    Omissis aliis ritibus initialibus Missae, et, pro opportunitate, Kyrie, dicit collectam

    The Mad Hatter's version: "If it's appropriate, skip it, and if it's inappropriate, include it."

    But the meaning seems to be, that the initial rites must be omitted, and that the Kyrie is optional.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    This seems to shed light on the question of whether the Kyrie is part of the Penitential Act or not. It seems from these recent posts on the matter (and the example of the Feb 2 Mass at the Vatican) that when the Penitential Act is ommitted one may choose to include the Kyrie or not.

    Perhaps, if normally sung, it seems it should be sung (to complete a Mass setting, perhaps), but if normally read, best to leave it out. I know others won't be, but I'm cool with that.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Also, this would solve the Funeral Mass problem in most settings of the Requiem - going straight from the Introit into the Kyrie...
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    They just sang the Kyrie at the Papal Ash Wednesday Mass.
    Thanked by 1Chris Hebard
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    Interesting.....
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    It seems to me that this clarifies it for once and all.
  • Paul_D
    Posts: 133
    Trouble is, this does not resolve the issue. The St. Peter’s celebration follows the rubrics for the stational Masses, which begin with a penitential act (the Processione Penitentiale – see the booklet at http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/libretti/2013/20130213.pdf).

    The introductory rites are omitted at St. Peter’s, and then -- per the rubrics -- “if appropriate”, the Kyrie. What constitutes “appropriate” is not immediately obvious. Perhaps it is more appropriate when there is a choir present that can lead a sung Kyrie, as opposed to the priest launching into a said Kyrie at this point.

    In a celebration without a penitential procession, as in a typical parish Mass today, all we are told is that the Penitential act is omitted. Since the Kyrie always follows the Penitential act, it is omitted, so it seems, in what appears to be the only logical interpretation of GIRM 52 (otherwise you can’t explain the other variations in the rites, e.g. the sprinkling rite.)

    So – should Ash Wednesday in a parish be:

    Greeting ... Kyrie ... “Let us pray” ... Collect OR Greeting ... “Let us pray” ... Collect?

    Seems to me that the latter is what is intended, because of the profound character of the imposition of ashes as a penitential act.

    The Kyrie seems to function in the liturgy as a conclusion to a penitential act, which normally consists of a time of silence to recall sins (the silence being probably the heart of the liturgical moment), then a communal admission of sinfulness, an absolution, then “a chant by which the faithful acclaim the Lord and implore his mercy” (GIRM 52). As I have said before, the Kyrie is like a penitential doxology. It seems strange to just “up” and sing/pray the Kyrie without the usual preparation to do so.

    I’m still waiting for an authoritative instruction on this issue. Call me a stickler for detail -- I am proudly so, because I believe there is great meaning in the rites. But happy to be corrected and obedient to whatever the CDWDS wishes to make clear.


  • Paul_OnnonhoaratonPaul_Onnonhoaraton
    Posts: 434
    here is a

    must read article by diocesan director of music re: this subject
  • Paul_D
    Posts: 133
    I wouldn't use that article as a reference -- "similarly worded in the introductory notes for Ash Wednesday in the Missal" is not correct. It is similarly worded in the introductory notes for Lent, for stational Masses preceded by a procession. (To be fair, I had made the same mistake in an earlier post.) Other comments strike me as odd.
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    Also, I'm not a director of liturgy, just music!
    Thanked by 1Paul_Onnonhoaraton
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