"de Angelis" Gloria alternating with polyphony
  • Adam Schwend
    Posts: 203
    Dear Colleagues,

    Our pastor returned from a pilgrimage to Rome and has expressed interest in the schola singing the Gloria from the Missa de Angelis at Christmas in alternating plainsong that the entire congregation would sing with polyphony that the schola would sing. Does anyone know of any settings that would fit this request? I know they've done it at St. Peter's Basilica before...but I don't know where I would locate sheet music.

    Thanks in advance,

    Adam S.
  • SamuelDorlaque
    Posts: 318
    Adam,
    I believe what you are referring to is a setting by Bartolucci of the Kyrie & Gloria from
    Mass VIII. I received a copy from a friend who brought it back from Rome. My personal
    opinion is that you might consider extracting sections of a polyphonic mass that works
    with the Mass VIII. Select a mass you'd like to learn and do some creative "cutting &
    pasting." An example: tonight, instead of doing the Agnus Dei I of a Palestrina Mass
    twice, the men sang the 1st Agnus of Mass VIII, full choir Agnus Dei I & II of Palestrina.

    I understand that Joseph Adam at the Cathedral in Seattle has done this with some of
    the Haydn masses to great success.
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    I recently attended an installation where this was done- Mass VIII Gloria with Victoria's Gloria 'O quam gloriosum' interpolated. I felt it was awkward, mostly because the congregation wanted to keep singing their Gloria and not alternate. Although it was laid out clearly in a nice program, maybe people knew it well enough that they just ignored the program? Sounded like it, a bit of a mash was had for a while every time it was the choir's turn.

    Debuting odd (though with a limited tradition) forms like that could be dicier at Christmas. If people are used to the chant, they'll probably resist 'my turn, your turn' and want to sing it.

    Just my .02. If you want chant and polyphony, I advocate respecting the forms, if only for clarity's sake.

    If your pastor really wants this, I'd be interested in knowing how it went.


  • WiesOrganista
    Posts: 128
    Sounds nice for a concert, but at Mass? Really?

    Unless of course your congregation is used to listening to, rather than singing along with, the Gloria, etc. In that case, cool.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I've been bemoaning this particular ABUSE for decades, but it seems the rest of the world, including some choral "experts" always go "Ooh, aah, this is how a choir should really sound." No humility, none, nada, zip, bupkis.
    Feh. And some of us actually think making the incipit of the Gloria a refrain constitutes a liturgical sin by comparison. Yeah, right.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Adam Wood
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Why it is that people mess, badly, with the Gloria at Christmas is simply beyond me.

    I don't know how many times I've had to put up with the Gloria being replaced by "Angels we have heard on high" with the reasoning: After all, the refrain is "Gloria in excelsis Deo" and that's in Latin! ... said as if that's the language the angels actually used. Good grief!!

    And the idea is simply repugnant, that the Gloria should be some sort of olio of this and that, showboating the choir (usually under-rehearsed and hence poorly performed) for all the attendees that show up for Midnight Mass.

    It's as if those in attendance at Midnight Mass need to be fed some sort of musical fruitcake that is chock full o' nuts, candied orange peel and colored cherries - and don't forget the rum or vodka or bourbon or brandy - along with a musical eggnog brewed up with eggyolks, whipped cream, beaten eggwhite clouds folded in, replete with nutmeg and perhaps a pistache of ground pistachios, pignoli, and pumpkin seeds - and don't forget the rum or vodka or bourbon or brandy.

    It's bad enough that the Gloria has to be turned into something all hark-the-herald-joy-to-the-angels-we-have-heard-ish or some ill-informed pastor's or liturgist's playlist for the entertainment of the TCE's in the crowd. What is worse is that jazzing the Gloria up in this way, even to the point of distorting it by monkeying with the text, so often obliterates the full meaning of the text, especially the middle parts full of supplication and glorious mystery.

    Give us a sense of awe and majesty, not pomp and circumstance. And for the Love of God, give us the Body and Blood, not fruitcake and eggnog.
    Thanked by 4Adam Wood PMulholland expeditus1 Casavant Organist
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    What language would the angels have actually used (or been heard in)? Aramaic? Hebrew? What would the actual words have been?

    I've always wondered that.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,481
    Enochian, of course.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,481
    Or perhaps just open vowels.

    From wikipedia:
    German philologist Jacob Grimm wrote in 1851 that if God spoke language, indeed any language that involves dental consonants, God must have teeth, and since teeth were created not for speech but for eating, it would follow that he also eats, which, as Frits Staal puts it, "leads to so many other undesirable assumptions that we better abandon the idea altogether".
    Thanked by 1Richard Mix
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    I'm afraid Dee and Kelley smoked a few California organics before creating Enochian.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,481
    I'm afraid Dee and Kelley smoked a few California organics before creating Enochian.


    Oh, man! Like, wow, man! Way to harsh my mellow, man!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,481
    Oh, man! Like, wow, man! Way to harsh my mellow, man!


    Sorry, corrected text:
    Oh, person! Like, wow, human being! Way to harsh my mellow, one!
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Sorry, "mellow" is tradmarked by the other Charles. ;-)
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611

    Addendum: Thank you all for not mentioning that in a VERY senior moment (got to have some excuse) I totally missed the topic being the GLORIA!

    I agree that changing horses midstream in the Glory to God is a disaster waiting to happen, unlike doing this in the Credo as follows, though some will not agree there as well.


    Back on topic:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp26p6t9uZ8

    Didn't I just mention kneeling? Notice the people READING THE MASS PROGRAM! It's a miracle! Catholics having a piece of paper in their hands for that Mass for that DAY! It's like people suddenly figured out that Catholics are not illiterate, immigrant trash, but CAN READ AND WRITE!

    Oh, no, Mr. Bill, they're accompanying chant with the organ...Mr. Bill, why are they doing that? Don't they know it's WRONG?

    Mellow, mellow out? Mellow Yellow!
    Thanked by 1Joseph Mendes
  • Adam Schwend
    Posts: 203
    I'm curious how one would characterize the practice as an abuse....the GIRM says:

    53. The Gloria in excelsis (Glory to God in the highest) is a most ancient and venerable hymn by which the Church, gathered in the Holy Spirit, glorifies and entreats God the Father and the Lamb. The text of this hymn may not be replaced by any other. It is intoned by the Priest or, if appropriate, by a cantor or by the choir; but it is sung either by everyone together, or by the people alternately with the choir, or by the choir alone. If not sung, it is to be recited either by everybody together or by two choirs responding one to the other.

    One certainly could argue the wisdom of the practice, but (and I am certainly open to correction), I don't see how this classifies as an abuse...

    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Gentlemen, Ladies...
    I'm quite sure you erudite folk are quite familiar with the terms "hyperbole" and "sarcasm." Are there colors for those? I didn't get the memo.
    But I suppose were I standing in St. Peter's during these interpolated "Glorias" that the one word typifying my "feeling" would be hostage. The mind would wander, perhaps out of need. To where? St. Mark's in Venice, around the early 17th c. To purgatory, likely not as the experience itself would mimic the timeless, interminable state of being already. Had enough?
  • Adam Schwend
    Posts: 203
    I had no idea this post would cause so much venom...
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    Hi, Adam!

    Alternating between the choir and congregation is fine, but re-arranging the Gloria into a refrain-and-verses structure is far from the ideal. It's not presenting the text in its integrity.

    And as WiesOrganista points out, if your congregation is used to singing the Gloria, then switching to a refrain is a sort of step backward. If the congregation is only going to have one line to sing, you may as well go all the way -- and have the choir sing the whole thing for Christmas in some wonderful setting! At least a choir-only Gloria would presumably keep the text in its original order.

    Thanked by 3noel jones, aago jpal CHGiffen
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I apologize to FNJ, Adam S. and the readership of MSF for exhibiting unnecessary crankiness and sarcasm that required RC's needed intervention. Mea culpa.
  • jgirodjgirod
    Posts: 45
    Not only was there an alternation between gregorian and polyphony at the Mass at Saint Peter on November 3, but also the day before at the mass for the dead at the Trinity of the Pilgrims. I think this is where the choir (and cantor) came from.
  • Adam Schwend
    Posts: 203
    Perhaps I was unclear...I certainly would not do a "refrain style" Gloria..rather, I'm looking at alternating lines with the choir singing a line in four parts and the congregation singing the next line in plainsong. Bartolucci does, indeed, do that...but I'm just not fond of the setting. I'm curious if anything else exists...
    Thanked by 1chonak
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