Chanting Propers with multiple verses
  • nicolem
    Posts: 11
    I'm very new to the concept of the Propers, but have been teaching myself the Gregorian Introits for about the past month or so. I've also introduced my children's choir to the Simple English Propers, and they latched on to it VERY quickly. (Meanwhile, showing them Mass VIII in chant notation has been (understandably) more of a challenge for them to grasp with the melismas...) However, I did notice that the SEPs have multiple verses, while my Gregorian Introit (which I'm taking from the Gregorian Missal from MS) only shows one verse. My question is: when there are multiple verses, does one go back and sing the refrain/antiphon every time between verses, or would it simply go antiphon, verse1, verse2, etc, Gloria Patri, antiphon? I also noticed that all the SEP practice videos only ever seem to incorporate one verse... Any guidance would be much appreciated!
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    The verses for the Introit are found here;

    http://media.musicasacra.com/pdf/psalmorum.pdf

    It should be noted that the psalm verse endings in the above book can be the more complex version, than that found in the Liber Usualis etc. When we sing them I make up sheets with all the music on them. See attachment below:

    In the Traditional Form, we would usually sing Antiphon, Verse, Gloria, Antiphon as suggested in the Liber Usualis. But when the Introit is very short we either sing

    Ant., verse, Ant., Gloria, Ant.

    OR

    Ant., Verse 1, Ant., Verse 2, Ant., Gloria, Ant.

    There is a third verse in the above book but I can't see that there would be the time to sing all 3 verses in most places / days.

    image
    INTDomIIPascha.pdf
    55K
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 998
    Jeffrey Tucker deals with the performance in the introduction to the SEP:

    The antiphons are "sung in full by a cantor with the choir or section then repeating the entire antiphon. Then the first psalm verse is sung, which is followed by a repetition of the antiphon by the choir or section. Continue this alternation between the antiphon and psalm as needed to cover the liturgical action, and end with the antiphon. The "Glory be" on the entrance and communion, which may be sung as the final verse, is traditional but optional."
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    In the OF, you can really sing it any way you want, depending on time and personal preference. Here are some different arrangements I sometimes do:

    - antiphon only
    - antiphon, verse, GP, antiphon (the traditional arrangement)
    - antiphon, verse (repeat as needed), antiphon, GP, antiphon (great if incense is used or you have a long procession)
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    At this time we are not doing the antiphon for the entrance but for communion we do:
    - antiphon, verse, antiphon, verse, antiphon, etc. if needed I will do the Gloria Patri.

    We are OF
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I forgot to mention: sometimes for communion, I will combine verses so that I can sing all of them, like this:

    - ant, verse, verse, ant, verse, verse (repeat until all verses complete), gp, verse.
  • nicolem
    Posts: 11
    Thanks so much to everyone for all of the assistance...feeling a bit red in the face that I trekked all over the internet, yet neglected the simple step of checking out the introductory comments to the SEPs :) @Ben, We are doing OF, so it's good to know that there is flexibility in how we can approach it. Like I said, Propers are very new to our Parish, so I'm just now starting to figure out how to incorporate them, and how extensively.

    For the moment, my inclination is to chant the Gregorian Latin Introit a capella (for both the beauty and exposure for the kids to the more elaborate chant), and then have the kids flow into the SEP Introit with as many verses as we have time for until we get the "signal" for Mass to begin. I'm not sure I'm going to have the option of cancelling out the opening hymn anytime soon, but I'm hoping this will be a good first step.
  • Hilary CesareHilary Cesare
    Posts: 75
    We began singing the SEP for a couple of months now. I am wondering, if there is no historical, liturgical basis for singing multiple psalm verses, would it not be just as acceptable to sing:

    English Antiphon, English Psalm Verse matching the one in the Graduale Romanum, (Gloriy be...), English Antiphon
    AND THEN
    A hymn, motet, other devotional chant?

    What would be the best thing to do? Why were so many extra English psalm verses added to the SEP? How were the extra ones chosen? Is it preferable to sing those extra verses vs. hymns/motets/other chants?

  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I have been under the impression that the full Psalm (or a large portion of it) was the original way of singing the Propers, and that the truncated Psalm was a later development.
  • Hilary CesareHilary Cesare
    Posts: 75
    Thank you Adam!! That is extremely helpful.
  • Hilary CesareHilary Cesare
    Posts: 75
    Just wondering - I am trying to learn all I can about the history of chant etc.

    When you said the original way, do you happen to know about when singing a large portion or full psalm was the norm?

    I am going to order that Musical Shape of the Liturgy book as soon as I can. Maybe it will have more info too.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    There was originally "notes" written down but there was no lines for the notes to be written on. It looked like text with squiggles above it. This is because all the chants were memorized by the cantors, and the sheet music only served as a reminder of the melody, not a codification of it. Basically, the chants were passed down from person to person before they were codified into books with staffs and lines.
  • Hilary CesareHilary Cesare
    Posts: 75
    Thanks Ben! I am familiar with the development of chant notation - I was just asking about those additional psalm verses which are included in the SEP but not the Graduale Romanum.

    For example, the Christmas Mass of the Day introit is:

    Puer natus est nobis...consilii Angelus. Ps. Cantate Domino Canticum Novum quia mirabilia fecit. Gloria Patri...Amen.

    However the SEP have that little psalm verse, plus 2 1/2 more verses (http://media.musicasacra.com/books/sep/008_SEP_Christmas_Mass-of-the-Day.pdf) .
    Are you saying earlier manuscripts have evidence of the additional verses?
  • Hilary CesareHilary Cesare
    Posts: 75
    .
  • Bruce E. Ford
    Posts: 431
    Ordo Romanus Primusindicates that the schola kept on singing verses and repeating the antiphon until the pope gave a signal--at which point the sang the Gloria Patri and repeated the antiphon for the last time.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    So... the pope was the first arm-raiser? ;)
  • Angela_F
    Posts: 1
    New here; corollary question: What if there aren't enough verses to cover the action? For example, we are using the Simple Choral Gradual in an OF Mass and the Offertory antiphons are usually quite short. Repeat verses? Other suggestions?
    Thanks,
    Angela
  • Hilary CesareHilary Cesare
    Posts: 75
    Thank you so much, Bruce! This has been very informative.

    Angela, we have just repeated verses. Sometimes we sing the entire thing twice to cover all the incensing.
  • Bob_Nardo
    Posts: 19
    Hello,

    As a new OF volunteer choir director, I searched for this old thread when I had the same question. I wonder if I could bring it back for a moment to see if, with more experience with this SEP collection, anyone with more experience could confirm or chime-in on this.

    Is there a firm guidance on the approach mentioned in Tucker's introduction (always repeating the antiphon after each separate verse) or Ben Y.'s more flexible pairing of verses?

    If the former were so, then given that we do these during our fairly swift procession, we would rarely get through more than one plus the GP. Maybe that's fine? Then on the other hand, during offertory and communion, when we do have plenty of time for verses,
    my unformed sense was that more verses between repetitions of the antiphon would help to provide some musical balance (admitting that this may be an invalid consideration).

    Prior to the last month, most of my choir experience was actually as an EF schola member, where we either just did the 1 verse and GP before repeating antiphon, or, at most, used the Communio book and alternated each verse... So I don't know why I'm having trouble applying that paradigm here. I suppose it's just because most of the antiphons are "shorter" in musical time.

    Thanks in advance
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Do whatever it takes to fill the liturgical action. For example, the Introit: we sing the antiphon, then the first verse, then I look behind to see what's going on. If the priest is already incensing, then we just go to the Gloria Patri. If he hasn't reached the altar yet, then we do the antiphon, then I look back and see what's going on... Another verse, Gloria Patri, or finish at the end of the antiphon.

    Just depends on how quickly folks are moving this morning, the length of the antiphon, the speed, etc.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    From what I understand, the earliest fos of chant were focused more on psalm verses than antiphons. As the antiphons got longer and more elaborate, there was a need for psalm verses.

    If you go through the gradual, yoi will find that some antiphons are much simpler and shorter than others. These are typically the more ancient ones.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    What is the E o u u a e at the end of the Gregorian example Tom posted?


    nicolem, you may have seen this already, but if you need organ accompaniments while using the SEP they can be found here:
    http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/uploads/FileUpload/09/e54df06188ebe028106fc2f120837d.pdf

    That's a draft with a few errors (since corrected), which will be available in print very soon (once licensing is approved for a published copy). Look for a new thread here in a week or two announcing it.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Sa"e"c"u"l"o"r"u"m, "A"m"e"n
    E U O U A E
    Thanked by 2tomjaw Andrew Motyka
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Those are a short hand of the termination formula for the chant tones. It's there to let you know which one to use.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    One used to see: Æ U O U A E , but the Æ has been replaced in modern times by E.

    donr is right ... it's the vowels in sÆ-cU-lO-rUm. A-mEn.

    And hartleymartin is right, too ... is used to specify the termination formula for chant tones.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    E U O U A E

    I thought they were a professional schola in San Francisco! ;-D)
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    There is that, too!
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    I posted 2 versions above, the left hand one is for less experienced singers and I have written the Gloria Patri out in full. The right hand version has the abbreviated form "EUOUAE", as kindly explained by a few kind souls above.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    What is the E o u u a e


    In addition, it's also this:

    http://euouae.com/
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
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