William Byrd's Mass for 3 voices
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    That's beautiful, francis!
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Thnx Chonak. I certainly hope it will help in promoting the EF.
  • ossian1898ossian1898
    Posts: 142
    We do the 3 part Byrd mass quite a bit because its not very hard and it can be pulled out almost any time during the year. Plus its good in a pinch when the "troops" are low. But the Kyrie is an issue.

    So this is what we do, and you'll see its fits real well.

    We use the Kyrie from Mass III for the first 2 kyries and then Byrd's polyphany for the 3rd. The first two Christe's from Mass III and then Byrd's. Then again we return for the next two kyries from Mass III and and it with Byrd's final polyphonic kyrie.

    The only issue is finding which note to to begin the chant on but that is easy once you figure out where to start. It is relatively seamless too. Hope this helps.
  • brach
    Posts: 1
    The brevity of Byrd's mass has nothing to do with the need for "recusants" to have short masses so as not to annoy the Church of England Protestants who were waiting outside the church door to start their own service. Recusants conducted their masses in private chapels, and in secrecy, not in public houses of worship. They were called "recusants" because they refused to attend services of the Church of England.
    Failure to attend services of the Church of England was a statutory offense.

    Surely Byrd was not selling his masses on the continent. Surely they had their own church composers on the continent.

    Had Byrd needed to repeat the words "Kyrie eleison" 3 times before moving on to the Christe, I suspect he would have simply extended the music in such a way that the music changed and developed with each repetition of the words. Surely a composer with Byrd's skill and imagination would not have resorted to the tacky and unimaginative solution of an explicit or implicit triple repeat sign.

    And what about those great Baroque fugal Kyries for Catholic masses? The composer was not forced to state the "Kyrie eleison" fugal subject PRECISELY 3 times in EACH voice before moving on to the Christe. The Kyrie of what became Bach's B-minor Mass was tailored for use in an actual Catholic mass. In the opening movement before the fugue, "Kyrie" is invoked twice by soprano 1, once by soprano 2, twice by the alto, and 3 times each by tenor and bass. Then a fugue begins in which "Kyrie eleison" is repeated many, many, many times in each of the 5 voices. This is followed a "Christe eleison" duet (no, not a trio!) in which the "Christe" is repeated about 20 times by both the soprano and alto. The Christe duet is followed by another 5-voice fugue on "Kyrie eleison".

    A polyphonic piece is not bound to repeat the text a precise number of times. A polyphonic piece achieves its affect through counterpoint, not through declamation.

    The words "Kyrie eleison" are not magic words that have to be repeated a precise number of times to be effective.
  • Pes
    Posts: 623
    Francis

    Thank you, thank you, thank you! (bis)
    Thank you, thank you, thank you!

    That's exactly what I'm talking about. Every time I hear recordings, I think about doing similar things. "Amen" formulas are also easy to excerpt, and Alleluias.

    Why ignore all this magnificent, beautiful music? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

    My schola will surely make use of this adaptation.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Pes:

    You are welcome, You are welcome, You are welcome.
    Anytime. Anytime. Anytime.
    Send a Recording! Send a Recording! Send a Recording!
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Francis, if you would do a copy up a fifth, for female voices, it would be very, very useful.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    fnj:

    For women's voices.
    kyrieForWomensVoices.pdf
    119K
  • paul
    Posts: 60
    we never will be able to judge exactly how well any of the old masters sang in tune. The singing of contemporary musicologists, on the other hand, is easily evaluated. I'd say, before you sling your mud, make sure your glass house is presentable.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    TXS! Will get it done early this fall and record it.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    paul:

    who's handful of mud are you referring to? not clear what you are speaking about... thnx.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    "The words "Kyrie eleison" are not magic words that have to be repeated a precise number of times to be effective."

    This is, quite simply, bull...read the documents. These are SACRED words and the repetition of them, and other things said in The Church has always had a SACRED purpose...and comes out of the old testament Hebrew worship.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    I am an organist and sing in a polyphonic choir that is working on this Mass to sing at an Ordinary Form Mass. We have sung the Kyrie before as an isolated setting in both the OF and EF. The first million times we sang it we simply repeated the whole setting two or three times to get the correct amount of text. The last time we sang it the director contrived a method of: Kyrie I, bis; Christe, bis; Kyrie I, Kyrie II. I thought it sounded completely ridiculous since it broke the flow of the music. I like the sound of the final half-cadence (G major) at the end leading back to the E-flat chord at the beginning - the B-natural in the Tenore leading back to the B-flat at the beginning is the kind of dissonant chromatic relation that Byrd and Tallis were famous for. But I'm not a scholar. It would be interesting to see what is actually printed in the first edition or any extant MS sources.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Well, Paul is right to a certain degree. They aren't 'magic'. Catholics do not practice magic. Only the occult does so. However, the KYRIE is a sacred ritual text. And when we pray it, God hears us and he is pleased and acts according to our repentant heart. So, while it is not magic, Frog is also correct. It has great impact on the progress of time and humanity. That is, after all, the truth and purpose of the Holy Sacrifice.

    The earth could easier live a day without the Sun than a day without the Mass.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    According to theologian R. C. Sproul in a sermon he gave 35 years ago, there is a significance in the old testamant to the repeating of names and words three times.

    Sanctus is said three times in the Hebrew service, which is how it came to be part of the Christian Mass.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Yes. The correct term is the superlative. In English we have the suffix to give emphasis. ie., holy, holier, holiest. We have single words to express the differences. In the Hebrew culture, they simply use the superlative. ie., holy, holy, holy. However, it still has nothing to do with magic.
  • PeterG
    Posts: 36
    I am introducing the Agnus Dei from the Byrd Mass for Three Voices to my choir to see if they can cope with entry level polyphony. I note that some editions ask for solo voices to sing the second Agnus section and some seem not to. Can anyone tell me whether Byrd called for this trio section? Do you perform it in this way?
    Appreciate also any other thoughts about performance practice that would assist a parish choir learn and sing this piece.
    Peter
    Auckland, New Zealand
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Peter... this is a new arrangement I made specifically to use in the EF.
  • PeterG
    Posts: 36
    Francis, is there a misunderatnding here? I don't think I've seen your arrangement of the Agnus Dei. Is it on CPDL?
    Why did you feel the use of solo voices made it particularly suitable for the EF? Not saying it doesn't - just curious and wondering whether to perform it that way.
    Peter
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Sorry Peter. Wasn't paying attention to title. The arrangement I made was for the Kyrie.
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