Where???
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Priests:

    Is it too much to ask to put parish names on these job advertisements?

    Thanks.
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,445
    They have to keep it a secret, because if people found out, then someone would know, and then it wouldn't be a secret anymore.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,927
    This knowledge is only for the elect. The rest are damned, and can't use the information.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,132
    I'll leave those ads open to comment so that the persons posting them can add the information. One didn't even give an e-mail address.

    If there's no response, I could add geographical information based on the IP address. :-)
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    Would it be worth it to make a special form for all postings under "job description," whereby they must fill in specific blanks for city/state, contact email, institution name, etc.?
    Although, I do understand the desire of pastors in some situations to not reveal that they are even looking to hire someone new, since they want someone in place for once they fire their current musician and imagine the explosion that might result in that, and no pastor wants to be music-less for even a week...
    Thanked by 2Gavin E_A_Fulhorst
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,132
    In the tech field where I come from, blind ads are disreputable. Some players use them to gather resumes for future reference with no intention of using them immediately. Once received by the anonymous advertiser, they might circulate elsewhere -- even back to one's current employer.

    If a pastor is so distressed by a current music director that he wants to remove him quickly, he has alternatives: (a) give the incumbent notice and pay him/her extra to stay on for a few weeks; (b) fire him/her immediately and hire substitutes (call the local AGO for candidates).

    And if the pastor is carrying out a secret operation to replace the MD, a fair number of musicians would not want to cooperate with such a maneuver, and would not want to apply.

  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I'd want to hear the circumstances and priest's side of the story before agreeing to cooperate. In some situations I might be fine with it.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I wasn't necessarily directing it at the recent posters. It's just a common annoyance. I think Mara has a FANTASTIC suggestion to have a suggested template - no need to enforce it, but just make it available. Parish name, job title, time requirements, contact info. I'm just surprised whenever people forget something like that!

    "if the pastor is carrying out a secret operation to replace the MD, a fair number of musicians would not want to cooperate with such a maneuver, and would not want to apply."

    AGREE COMPLETELY. I applied for one job in Detroit (and I'm happy to name names) that had been advertised for over a month. I dropped by the church after Mass to speak to the priest, and had this conversation with the first person I saw:

    Me: "Excuse me, I'm looking for Fr. Rob."
    Guy: "He's back in the rectory by now. Can I help you with anything?"
    Me: "Yes, I'm interested in talking to him about the music director position."
    Guy: "Where did you hear about it?
    Me: "It's advertised at school. Why?"
    Guy: "I'm the music director. I only gave notice a week ago."
    Me: "I first saw it advertised two months ago."
    Guy: "........"
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    awwwwwwkward....
    Thanked by 2Ben E_A_Fulhorst
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,498
    All this animosity and distrust is fueled by the inCREDible amount of difficulty in communicating about music. Even amongst ourselves, it's tough to clearly reason about music, or put things into words. A priest who does not have musical training can't possibly express his expectations. A music director can't possibly explain his/her rationale for decisions. It's so painfully difficult.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,445
    I don't know, Kathy. I mean- I understand what you're saying about the difficuly of talking about MUSIC...

    But an inability to communicate about music in the abstract shouldn't excuse a lack of common sense and human decency.

    You don't need to be able to theorize about the proper place of hymnody or know the difference between Gregorian Chant and "Gregorian: Masters of the Chant" in order to be able to communicate things like "St. Jojoba's Reformed Presbyterian Parish is looking for a hurdy-gurdyist" or "I'm sorry, Greg, we're gonna have to let you go. We like your playing and all, but we really need someone who wears pants to staff meetings."

    IF ONLY the hiring/firing/hr problems and difficulties we all experience were related to disagreements and miscommunication about issues actually concerning music.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,498
    I don't think I'm really deflecting these issues. Reasonable HR happens when there is trust, and trust happens when there is communication. Since DMs speak both human and music, I think the burden is on us to make the communication happen.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,498
    Obviously, that's a job skill that's usually omitted from the job description....
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,179
    The topic of human resources management is one of the great "taboo" subjects in the contemporary priesthood. In my 30 years of working in Holy Mother Church and having worked for 12 different pastors, I think with some certainty I had one that had any skills in communications and HR. When I taught for a while at a seminary, I hounded the rector to get the guys a class in parish management and communications. But the rector's response was that "they learn that when they are sent out as deacons and young priests working for pastors." Yep, the stupid leading the blind.

    There are some who understand the business of managing staffs and personalities, but by and large, most are incompetent. I say that lovingly because many of that 12 are good friends and the rest...well, that is another story. And this is not priest-bashing. I "understand" this problem and and in many cases have learned to work with it. And I truly love many of the priests I live and work with. I just wish they had been given skills in this area. And I am one who believes some of this can be "taught."

    C'est la vie.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,498
    So, then, if that is the case, what do we do? I suggest we take it upon ourselves to make the communication happen.
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    I'm not really following you, Kathy. Somewhere we went from a priest's inability to write a good job ad (nay, a basic job ad that gives fundamental details like a parish name or e-mail address) to his inability to talk about music? What's the connection?
  • A priest was unavailable because he was at a two day HR conference about employee management, run by the diocesan HR person. Months later a firing occurred and was challenged, since it failed to follow the diocesan firing procedure to which the HR officer replied, in writing, that there was no diocesan firing procedure and there had been no training session for the priest.

    Many diocese are run in a truly scummy manner. The pope would be aghast if it were not all covered up so he doesn't know.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,498
    I'm just saying, for every group of musicians sitting around saying "Priests are terrible at HR," there's a group of priests sitting around saying "Musicians are such difficult staffers." One of the reasons is, unlike with RCIA directors or CCD directors or secretaries, priests usually do not speak our language. I don't think this is a unique situation. In a manufacturing company, if a middle manager who is not an engineer has the responsibility for supervising engineers, there will be a disconnect in terms of understanding. The engineer will have to be proactive in "translating" his/her job description in terms the boss will understand. It's kind of a pain.
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    OK, that makes a lot of sense!
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,179
    I am sorry but this is not about speaking "music." This is about communications and good procedure for defining jobs, talking about expectations and proper HR for working with staffs. An example: my pastor (not my current boss) heard from another priest that I was looking for another job. Without asking me, he advertised my position. He neither asked me and nor anyone else but I saw my job in the diocesan newspaper. After I saw this, I threw myself into his office and asked. His reply " I heard a rumor." It was just that: a rumor not authenticated.
    My point: you check these things out. The priest was afraid to deal in reality.

    We all need management skills, better communication skills about many things and the willingness to learn about managing people, a skill that is taught, discussed and developed in many places in many ways. Procedures are like improvisation: the rules free you to go where you want. You know the boundaries.

    I no longer excuse priests: I try to help them see that that procedures are there to support them and free them to do what they need.

    Et voila!!!!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,927
    Priests need accounting skills, management training, and HR skills. Business courses should be required for them. How many leave parishes in financial straits because of poor management skills? I have seen it happen too often.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,498
    Kevin,

    I think we're saying pretty much the same thing. Musicians must, to some extent, "manage up."
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood CHGiffen
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,498
    We can talk about blame all day, without fixing anything. Whether or not it's fair, the musicians are probably going to have to be the fixers in this particular situation.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,179
    Yep... because the current state of seminary education does not seem to think that they need HR skills and communications. I suppose those are gifts of the Holy Spirit, but the Spirit has been awful stingy on those gifts. Damn, that ontology.....
  • TCJ
    Posts: 965
    At one church I worked for, I was found and offered a job before the old music director knew he was being fired. I knew about the situation, however, I was okay with it in that instance because I knew the pastor's reasons for the secrecy were good (preventing a scandal). I'm not sure that's a typical situation, but that's how it happened.
  • I, newly signed up to this forum,would like to post a job opening but I'm not finding any instructions how to do it. Or any menu at the top to expand information about myself. Can anyone help?
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Curatus: Click the big "Start New Discussion" button on the left side, and for the category, select "Job Openings".

    Usually the "Discussion Title" is the position title and location. You may write the posting as you please, but it's probably best to include the parish name and location, hours involved, qualifications needed, salary range, and don't forget clear contact information!

    Click "Post Discussion", and a moderator will soon "close" your posting, and keep it at the top of everyone's discussion list for a time. Good luck, and thanks for posting here!

    MODERATORS: Perhaps "how to post a job opening" wold be a good sticky?