Kyrie when Penitential Rite is omitted?
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    After the introduction of the ordinary form in 1970, Form B was preferred by the Consociation Internationalis Musicae Sacrae and by the Church Music Association of America for Masses sung in Latin. My choir uses it except during the Easter Season, when the aspersion replaces the penitential rite.

    Concerning the Credo, the GIRM specifies that it is sung on Sundays and Solemnities, but it specifies that "it may be said also at particular celebrations of a more solemn character." (¶68)

    Concerning the Kyrie, it says "After the Penitential Act, the Kyrie eleison . . . is always begun, unless it has already been part of the Penitential Act [i.e., Form C]." (¶52) I would contend that "always" represents a certain inconsistency in the rubrics for those days on which the penitential rite is omitted and the rubrics of the day say that the collect is then said, omitting the Kyrie.
  • dhalkjdhalkj
    Posts: 61
    In working with elementary school choirs singing at school masses and with confirmation classes practicing the confirmation mass music I am able to get enthusiastic responses when I ask for cantors to lead the Kyrie. It is much easier to do than the responsorial psalm. This has meant we have to forgo using penitential form C and in choosing between A or B, I go with B as being easier and quicker for school kids to manage. Fortunately the cards that appeared in the pews three years ago with the new translation were being picked up and looked at and that made it easy for the whole congregation to learn form B existed and how it went. The cards wore out and have been removed but we continue to cycle between all three forms Sunday by Sunday. It used to be the habit to sing the Kyrie only in the seasons when Gloria was not being sung but the changes three years ago made it possible for me to introduce the habit of singing both. Making sure my amateur cantors know which setting we're doing and when it happens and what they have to do to lead it is a feature of every pre-mass warm-up now and requires constant attention.
  • johnmann
    Posts: 175
    the Holy Father himself at papal Masses **with the Sprinkling Rite includes the Kyrie**.... Hard to argue with that.


    It's pretty easy to argue with. Regardless of whether the Kyrie is omitted in other situations, it's always omitted when there's a Sprinkling Rite (see Missal Appendix II).
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    The Holy Father also washes the feet of Muslim women - in violation of the clearly stated directives the rest of us are required to follow: viri selecti can't be understood to include Muslim women, if we're going by the actual words of the directive. If the words of the directive are meaningless .... then standing on the text is untenable.

    Thanked by 2eft94530 CharlesW
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    It's pretty clear if you read the missal:

    • The kyrie is something that occurs after the penitential act, though it is sometimes not done.
    • The sprinkling rite skips forward directly to the gloria (skipping both Penitential act & kyrie).

    Not sure what is so confusing about this.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    though it is sometimes not done.


    For example, if it has already occurred.

    Also --- and this applies to (most?) things in the Missal --- if you sing it, you can not also omit it. (Avicenna was very clear on this point.)
  • johnmann
    Posts: 175
    I recently came across the following in Jungmann's Mass of the Roman Rite and thought of this topic here:

    "In line with this was the practice which lasted far into the Middle Ages-as late as the twelfth century-of omitting the Kyrie at Mass on days when the collecta with its protracted litany preceded the statio. The same thing happened at the major ordinations, since the litany followed. Even at present the litany (with its Kyrie) which is said on Holy Saturday counts for the Kyrie of the Mass."

    So it was traditionally omitted when it was said elsewhere. The instruction to omit the Kyrie if it's already said in the Penitential Rite may not have been a pragmatic instruction invented for the OF but the traditional rubric.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,945
    No, the two are distinct, because it is ommitted even when the Kyrie is not included in the precedig rite, even if this kind of thing is what inspired this reform in the decree Inter oecumenici.

    There is no Introit on Holy Saturday, and in the pre-1955 liturgy there is a proper Kyrie, inasmuch as the ministers recite it. I recall the choir sings it in full, and Reid does not say how to sing it, only saying that the Litany is not finished before the ministers go to the altar. Omitting the preparatory prayers was a 1955 change that influenced Palm Sunday, Ash Wednesday, and Candlemas as well, and trads tend to dislike it. That is more likely the source of omitting the penitential act and Kyrie.
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