"We need to make it extremely easy to find exactly what your looking for. "Oh you need to know what song to play on Holy Thursday during washing of the feet? here are four great choices in Latin and two in English by the great composer guy or gal"."

That's right. Of course, there would end up being two, three or more of these places that would pop up, and that would be ideal, since there are taste decisions involved and we should never, ever, be stuck as we were in the 1940's with a single black list and single white list. They were excellent in their ways, and due to the way things were disseminated then, all powerful.

Money is not the issue today, but creativity and time are, but on this group we have plenty of creativity.

The best thing about this is that if someone decided to go into this to make money, they'd fail because there is no money in this at this point...so this keeps the mercenaries out.

Getting back to the point of the thread, CHGiffen, Francis, and Noel, as well as DonR, seem to understand the point. If there is a problem with the "3", why not move forward with a solution. Insanity? Was it insane when the big 3 started up? They didn't just start up big. They started small as all do, and worked there way up to where they are. Doesn't mean that CMAA members can't have something similiar, following the ideals and tones of what is desired in sacred music. Whether it becomes a big 4th or not, someplace to offer all this creative and liturgy appropriate music, wouldn't be a bad thing. What would be nice is as CHGiffen and Noel suggested, a place that is organized on the web, where we could locate things. JMO has done a terrific job with his site, especially with the Psalms. What about someplace for the propers? new masses? I do like Francis' idea of having something in print as well, especially for those that aren't internet savy. As for marketing, there are plenty on here, as I am sure, that would market it around town. Just a thought

Michael and all friends here, nothing of what I said was meant to incite a temperament of negativity towards the notion of interested parties coming together to form yet another "hard copy publishing house" enterprise. So, I think my characterization of the atomic reaction of flying ideas and goals as maybe being poised towards "insanity" was not personal. But, if those who didn't get that would have had the opportunity to various other postings about this subject here at MSF and at Cafe, you'd understand why I don't see much of a future for an orthodox hard copy counterpart to the three initial houses. Or I could just say "Adoremus Hymnal."
Here are some simple bullet points I've illustrated elsewhere.
*Pulp missals were the most convenient and nominally temporary solution to the myriad and complex changes that were problematic between 1965-1970 with the Pauline Missal finally on scene.
*Those "temporary" media evolved to "cash cow" status as different streams of composers sought to fill in the presumed void of suitable music for the unbridled vernacular usage. If one has myopia one would think of FEL and WLP tunesmiths Repp, Wise, Miffleton, Scholtes, Temple as the only game in town at the time. Nope, right next to them were Deiss, Westendorf, Peloquin, Hughes, Kraehenbuhl, Vermulst and plenty of credentialed composers. So, as repertoires from of old (Pius X, Basil, Gregory) were entombed, eventually the back pages of these monthly pulp magazines couldn't accomodate the burgeoning new industry of re-inventing Catholic music. Jubilate Deo never had a chance.
*The natural inclination of publishers to mine deeper into creative coffers resulted in the first editions of WORSHIP and PEOPLES' MASS BOOK, but the appropriation of ecumenical hymnody was not exactly given an equal amount of respect from parish to parish in the early to mid-70's. The charismatic movement wedged their repertoire (from Ann Arbor, MI?) into the parish Sunday mix due to their popularity and verve in the parish halls on weeknight evenings. And, almost on cue from Horace Greeley, a man from out west name of Bruno, North American Liturgy Resources (NALR) bursts onto the scene in the wake of FEL and Franciscan publication collapses, with the Catholic equivilent of the Beatles, the Stones and Herman's Hermits- The Saint Louis Jesuits, the Damiens and Carey Landry. Soon the glossy bright cover of the first "Glory and Praise" semi-pulp songbooks sat alongside the hardcovers, and territories were being carved out and targeted.
*Oot west too, further north, the smallish Oregon Catholic Press and Tract Society had started something that WLP/Paluch and GIA didn't think to hybridize: the yearly pulp hymnal, "Music Issue" inwhich they negotiated mostly with "composers" who affiliated themselves at first with one publisher over the others (that would soon disappear as well.) And their golden goose relationship eventually settled with NALR, so much so that at the time when NALR severed their relationship with OCP as they tried to corner and solidify their market share (all those copyright issues were nuts back then!) But NALR couldn't sustain or survive and OCP was the natural "white knight" and inheritor to much of the NALR top forty all time hits.
*In Chicago, WLP experimented with its own versions of renewable hymnals alongside their hardbound standard ones, but their artist share was perceived as meager by comparison to OCP/NALR and GIA, who'd debuted the trio of Minnesotans, Joncas, Haugen and Haas in 78/79. "GATHER" was born. WORSHIP II (and later III and RITUALSONGS) were compiled as companion or alternatives to have side by side in pew pockets. (Ironically for this observer, the best GIA hymnal, LEAD ME, GUIDE ME, was relegated to the African American niche market, tho' it was chock full of goodies, including the new guys.)

At this juncture I'd like to reiterate that what began as a farily benign little idea born out of charity and convenience, the missalette, now was firmly ensconsed into the mindset and budgets of pretty much every parish in the USA and elsewhere. And what kept their successors, the hardbound or pulp hymnal, viable was the promise of new content as the new repertoires solidified and supposedly improved. And I don't think I really want to continue giving my version of events (not Ken Canedo's, btw.) because most of us are old enough to pick up the story.
But I hope I've provided a glimpse of how the word "insanity" was deployed. Reaction, commerce, reaction by competing commerce, house artists and showcases in conventions and parishes throughout the year, reading sessions, eventual composer/artist free agency, market saturation to the point of glut and incoherency. And long about 1999 the Big Three discover "Life Teen" and the push was on big time in Pittsburgh of that summer. It now dominates the market share. But does anyone actually use this stuff that doesn't live in PhoenixTucsonAZ and Santa Monica/Ahaheim CA? I suspect so, but have no empirical knowledge of it as I fulfilled the last of Kesey's mandates, I dropped out in 2000 appropriately at the NPM Western regional Mass in Las Vegas when the samba line ushered in the Book of the Gospels to the strains (never was their more apt a term) of a catholic Praise Team!
You can't make this stuff up. It happened, I was there and it was real. The whole schmeer.
Now to the point of not-INSANITY.

CMAA is decidedly counter cultural because it adheres to a regimen of authenticity of philosophy and praxis. It, too, apparently has had its ups, downs and where are we goings. But the people running it have two things, at least, in common: 1. They have day jobs and aren't paid to run CMAA; 2. They aren't the least bit interested in producing product for commerce's sake. They are interested in guiding us toward content that is authentic, that is licit, that is legally available for distribution free of charge whenever possible, and that hopefully was sung by saints in ancestor churches over periods of hundreds of years, which would include the last 45.
I'll conclude my insanity with the following questions?
Who here has purchased copies of a colloquium program book for their choir? Assume my hand is raised with yours.
Who here has purchased rights to e-publish Simple Choral Gradual by RR?
Who here has purchased sets of Noel Jones' Anthologies for RCC Choirs or the Catholic Choir Book?
Who here has purchased choir sets of Parish Book of Chants?
Who here has purchased choir sets of the Simple English Propers?
Who here has purchased has purchased choir sets of the new Rice Choral Communio's?
Who here has purchased parish sets of the Vatican II Hymnal or....would if they could?
Who has purchased the Oost Zinner Psalter, the CCW Psalter, or any of the CCW resources for choirs, directors, cantors, etc.?
All of these and more are out there, as Noel said, available because LuLu fills a need that all of us could take advantage of in a meaningful way: the compilation of a parish/diocesan music book full of public domain, commons, and select copyright materials given authorization and local contributions from local composers, and that can be deemed licit by the local See and the USCCB according to their protocols.

I echo Charles' comments. I use CPDL, CCW, and many of the things found in this neighborhood. I do not use the big 3 for anything.Not interested in a number 4. I find my resources in these lands and my supplier of choral music not found at CPDL (my local choral music supplier or a name such as Pepper or Brodt.)

I have an honest question about FACP and another about reprint rights. Please don't kick/ban me.

"...Who here has purchased choir sets of Parish Book of Chants?
Who here has purchased choir sets of the Simple English Propers?
Who here has purchased has purchased [sic] choir sets of the new Rice Choral Communio's?

1st question: Are parishioners (aka "pips") not to sing?

2nd question: If parish funds are an issue (and the "pips" do not sing) why cannot the DM just purchase one copy of these materials and print single copies "pro re nata" for the choir?

Thank you. In advance.

Vic,
First of all, welcome. I hope you understand the acronym PIP is in no way perjorative (People in pews) and is a benign abbreviation only. And your excerpted quotes aren't really directly associated with FACP, but I'm happy to clarify what I believe are the correct answers as prescribed by all the legislative and advisory documents since 1903.
1. All the faithful, particularly the congregation are profoundly encouraged to sing. The motu proprio of Pius X makes that explicitly clear. St. Pio X's concern is that the Faithful's rightful role to actively participate had been subsumed by artistic "largesse" and excess, as I understand it.
2. I'm not sure how exactly your premise is apropos or even valid (see #1.) There are plenteous resources where a DM can effect exactly what you describe, and many of those are totally gratis. They are mentioned in abundance in many threads and topics in this forum. St. James Press, Bensonarium, CanticaNova are just a few. CPDL is completely free. And the point of my long post, nearly everything on the CMAA website ("chant books" button) which include a vast resource of hymns in the public domain or new settings and texts that are "in the commons," aka- free to use with proper acknowledgments.
There is nothing more uplifting to the soul of an entire assembly of worshippers taking up the liturgical moment in song together. Everyone.
Blessings

Heck, Charles in CenCa says it so much better than I can....thanks, Charles!

donr

you HAVE the right vision for the kind of people I need. Send me your CV! ...and anyone else who has the vision. those of you who don't want the big fourth, need not apply!

Hi Charles In Cenca, I understood what you meant, and took nothing to heart about it, as I know your a stand up guy. With that said, I know where your coming from with regards to the worries of a "4th", and believe me that would concern me as well. My thought with that is, if someone does setup, in this case, it appears either Francis or Noel will be racing to frontlines on this, a big "4th", I would hope that it maintains the ideas of the CMAA, with regards to sacred music.

As I said in the first post, a lot of DM's don't have access or have never been exposed to this type of Sacred music, and because so many are frustrated, aggravated, and hurt by the companies that do exist, perhaps as a solution to these frustrations, which I am sure most of us have experienced, why not have either a way of disseminating these materials, whether it be via another company, or by some known location on the web.

I share DonR's experiences as well, with the $4,000 a yr purchases of materials. I experienced it all the way till I canceled it this last June. I also realize where DonR is coming, wanting to have other options available to come into align with Sacred music. It is because of this, that I believe francis' ideas of doing a simliar things as the big 3, but making it a 4th that concentrates on providing products that are within the ideas and values that CMAA promotes. That's all.

All in all guys, we are on the same team. We have to sit through endless music that perhaps the people will never sing. Why not have more options available. Don't we all love having different options available to us?

Again, I also support the ideas of Chuck Giffen, about setting up a "central" location to access all these beautiful works, that so many have labored to put together. For instance, I have noticed the files that Ryand puts out, accompanying the SEPs, but they are all spread out inside of countless other comments, which makes it easy to miss files.

I really truly hope that Francis and/or Noel can take their projects to full fruition, as well as Chuck. The legacy you would create, for a positive sacred music future, would be bountiful!

Are we all just ignoring the existence of the Vatican II Hymnal, or what? I don't get what all this is about.

I don't know how far it can succeed, Gavin: it's got great content, but the book design is unconventional in so many ways that I find it off-putting.

I must have missed that. My general point is that Michael is bemoaning that there is no alternative to We Celebrate, Breaking Bread, or Worship, when there exists an alternative to these products in the Vatican II Hymnal. It has its ups and downs, but it is a comparable product. I don't see the need to create another multi-million-dollar behemoth in the liturgical-industrial complex to have a competing hymnal.

JO

You are the closest thing we have to the big 4th, but I am talking about the printing model used by the other three. They have honed it for decades. We simply pick it up and run. Typical church musicians need binders, missallettes, spiral bound psalm and propers (with organ and guitar accomps), CDs and more, all from a single catalogue. Here's why. Printed matter is always visible every time you walk into your office or the choir loft. Printed music sells more printed music. Imagine if WE put out a liturgical planning guide. It also makes us credible in the eyes of the public to be a publisher. The web is great, but I don't think it can be the main ave of distribution. I laud you for your fantastic efforts as I have done time and time again. Keep up the great work. I am hoping we all get in sync somehow with all of this. I know Adam is up to much the same thing also.

In my humble opinion, ONLY when the seminaries and the clergy that come from them are fully well educated and in agreement on sacred music and the true understanding of the Church's documents on sacred music AND will obediently follow the Holy Father and the Church's rulings on Sacred Music with a right spirit, will a true conversion come about in churches in regards to sacred music.

All too often I have heard several fellow clergy and bishops' true opinions and comments (behind closed doors), on chant and polyphony and the people / organizations promoting it and it is NOT positive. The fact is this, for the most part; the vast majority of clergy have a poor understanding and appreciation for traditional sacred classical music and musicians due in part to their culturative education and formation.

Secondly, many either negatively and begrudgingly follow with disgruntled obedience or in actuality defiantly go against the Church's teachings on sacred music in favor of their own likes/dislikes and what they think their parishioners want based on their culture and the collection plate.

This, in my humble opinion, is the cold hard facts! Everything else is secondary. Case in point is the FSSP. They seem to strive in having a deep and meaningful well educated understand of sacred music and a right spirit to follow the Church's teaching with a proactive, cheerful and positive obedience.

I hope and pray that I have not offended anyone, but I call it like I see it.

Okay, Gavin since you obviously failed to read my posts well before commenting, here goes.

Again, I am not advocating an entirely new product to VTII hymnal. If you would have read correctly sir, I am advocating a place to be able to pick up a book if you need one, for propers, entrance, offertories, communions. If you need more psalms than the ones you have. Let's face it, people do like variety, and why not have products that follow the similiar thoughts of the CMAA, among diverse and different composers. For instance, JMO has done a great job of putting up responsorial psalms, but not only his, but of many composers. My thoughts are having others that can put together there works, such as propers, ordinaries, motets, choral pieces, all with the CMAA ideas in mind.
Having a location such as Francis suggests, where one can get all these things, makes sense. If you noted, DonR came here by coincidence, and only because he was looking for something else that referenced this place. Think of how many would and probably will never know what CMAA means, does, the ideas of Sacred music. Why not have something available to them that can say, look at this, and give them more than what is commercially available through other companies.

I stumbled on this site, much like DonR, out of coincidence as well. I found it because I was searching for something, and it referenced MusicaSacra. I had never even heard of CMAA before. When I found this place, I thought, wow,,,, awesome. It helped me renew and grow a more profound love for chanting, than I had before I came here. So why not give others the opportunity that you already have?

For myself, this thread has run its course well. I believe that it is time to ponder the wisdom that Abbot Coel brought to the conversations, and that whatever side of the debate whether to have a commercial enterprise you're on, we can all agree to pray for the massive conversion of hearts and minds of our current and future clerics, because the Church cannot suffer much more internal division and not risk losing more credible witness to the world that she alone holds the Keys in toto, the principium locum representing the Logos, the Theotokos, and the traditions and beliefs given us by the Lord Himself. May all division cease.

MichaelM,

I'm not sure I have anything constructive to add to this conversation (at the moment, at least), except to note that your post has gotten an INSANE amount of responses in a very short time! Congrats!

JMO, thanks. The real reason for this thread is this; most of us, but not all, probably do sit back and see no end in sight, myself included. After carefully watching some of the regular posts, I see that we are all in the same boat. We want to see changes made, yet, when we see others around us, continuing in the opposite direction, in churches all around us, we have to ask ourselves, why? Because they only have exposure to one thing. A thing that has grown easy, something that is readily there. As a few on here noted, many DMs are not full time. There was a time when I wasn't either. I had to work several jobs that would cater to allowing Sundays and Saturday afternoons free. There is no time to sit and read lots of musical documents, sadly, not enough time to read every reading all the time, and make selections in accordance to that. Working 2-3 jobs, to just allow for that one job we all enjoy, Music at Mass, it is easy to want to pick up a Lit planner and just pluck away a few of our favorites, instead of really putting forth an effort. I don't lay any blame on a part time DM, as I have, and surely, many here have had to do, is walk in those shoes. Job balancing, families, schooling, part time maybe paid church position.

What I advocate is basically similar to what you are on a path to do, but incorporating even more, in a sense such as Francis suggested. How about Lit planners from Sacred Music minded people, for not just us, but for many, along with the resources to go with it. Propers, Ordinaries, Educational Materials, all those things that one of those companies would provide, but utilizing the ideals and values the CMAA promotes. Those big guys are promoting not only their pulp books, but hardbounds, books for funerals, weddings, RCIA, and tons of other things that are constantly occupying our time. We need those resources. Why not have them more available for the people.

On a side note: I personally enjoy the VTII hymnal, as well as the psalms. I love the fact that you have them available for digital download, as I use digital devices for my music. With that said, I still purchased the hardbound/spiral bound copies of the books, like the accompaniment, and psalm books. One, I believe you guys should be fairly compensated for such hard work, two, I do like to have the printed materials available. In the near future, we will be purchasing a few more psalm books, as I want all the cantors to have their copies. It also allows me to show other friends these things, and get them hyped up on Sacred music, instead of the usual. Keep up the great work!

All too often I have heard several fellow clergy and bishops' true opinions and comments (behind closed doors), on chant and polyphony and the people / organizations promoting it and it is NOT positive.

The good Abbot is correct. We are not thought well of in many high places. Locally, I think we are tolerated because many in our camp have money and contribute generously. It has something to do with not killing the gift horse, or something similar.

I think we just need to wean the people off of the "Big 3". Right now in my parish we are about to change hymnals to Vatican II, but I've decided to keep my OCP reprint license and make a supplement of hymns to put in the pews. It's just a big psychological game. Vatican II hymnody will be sung, but the people will still know that "their" music is still available to them, even if it's never used. Anyways, just my two cents worth.

Having served as cantor and/or choir member in a dozen parishes, DoM in two 'normal' parishes, and now DoM in a diocesan parish run by the FSSP, I also have come to the conclusion that the abbot has, above.

While I do my best to reclaim and promote sacred music, the real change that needs to happen *first* is in our seminaries and in the hearts of our priests. Sung liturgy is anchored in and made stable through our sacred ministers. They lead. And when their liturgical formation is... lacking, what do they know besides the glossy fliers in their mailbox and the stuff other parishes are doing?

We musicians can be busy with projects- we should be busy. But I have a hunch that our most fruitful efforts may lie in prayer and *sacrifice* for our current and future clergy. When every minute I spend prepping rehearsal, reading books on chant, giving voice lessons to priests and deacons, or commenting on this forum is matched with minutes in fervent prayer for our sems and priests, then I will consider myself productive.

Time to aim an auto-fire rifle at some sacred cows.
IF a "4th" is to compete with the Big 3, it has to be a commercial operation, in all senses of the word. The big 3 has shown that even the notoriously cheap Catholic Church will pay for music. The only question is whether it will pay for our type of music.

One part of "commercial" involves paying composers, and defending their copyrights. I am convinced that intellectual property is not property, in any coherent understanding of the term "property". So? We in the US live under a constitutional regime that explicitly authorizes a mercantilist model of compensating creators. I think that the extensions of copyright law since then have been bad for music as a whole, but if Disney goes rent-seeking, I don't think it's immoral to ride on their coattails. The parallel with spreading the Gospel does not apply here because, in fact, there are vast resources of free, PD/CC sacred music; DMs don't NEED us in order to do what the Church asks of them. What people will be paying for (besides my specific music, or Kevin's or Richard's or whoever else who wants to play) is merchandising, product delivery, convenient physical copies, curation ...in short, selling a service. That service could well include new editions of PD works.

Now, launching such a business in the present economic climate is another thing altogether. Starting small will not do it, as you'll only attract the intensely curious who would seek out the free things anyway. Yes, the Big 3 did it that way, but they had history on their side. The 4th has to be as unavoidable as the big 3. Plus one would have to break the inertia of "we're an OCP parish", so it would require even more persuasion, on top of unassailably good and useful product, constantly flowing to meet any big-3 market shift toward traditional music. So we'd need somebody with huge capital, and a huger track history of creating a successful business. On one level, it really has to be "all about the money". And the community discomfort with that stems, I believe, from Marxist-inspired misreadings of the social teaching of the Church. The workman is worthy of his hire, guys. I don't begrudge anyone (not even the big 3) the money that they make, even if they make it from crap...because, guess what, they aren't forcing any DM in the country to do their stuff. I want to see sacred music composers, editors, publicists, etc...everyone involved... make a family wage. Can it happen? I dunno, but it's worth thinking about.

Jeffrey Quick said:

What people will be paying for (besides my specific music, or Kevin's or Richard's or whoever else who wants to play) is merchandising, product delivery, convenient physical copies, curation ...in short, selling a service. That service could well include new editions of PD works.

You hit the nail on the head. We are not doing this to MAKE money, we are doing this because it is our passion, we believe in it, we are totally devoted to it while at the same time we have to feed our families and pay the bills. There is nothing wrong with being commercial. The PRINCIPLE is what has to drive the mission. Money will follow ministry. And I think it is entirely possible, BTW to keep our music in the PD at the same time that we publish it in a commercial format. Why? Because church musicians and parishes WANT AND NEED TO BUY A PROGRAM. That is the commodity we will deliver. Anyone who wants the music for free, well, like we all do now, HAVE AT IT! They will still want to buy the paper. (comprehensive program)

One good thing about the impulse to make money is that it motivates the entrepreneur to serve the customer in additional ways.

That could mean offering choir folios, a "pastoral resources" magazine (or these days, a website), sample recordings, etc.

In my part of the world, there are several of us in this diocese who say to people "Its not that the big 3 are bad, we just want to show you another possibility." New resources coupled with low cost have intrigued a number of parishes to investigate the resources of CMAA and the composers in our midst. In the Ky. holyland, hearts are making changes, not based on vitriol, but with excitement and connection to the tradition.
My.02.