Musical Change In The Church
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I'm starting this thread as a lead off, about some of the frustrations and concerns that Benedictgal, as well as others, have so often stated over and over, and offer a perspective from a DM, having watched it for months now. How can we effectively bring about a positive change to the musical situation in our churches. Here are some thoughts and perspectives.
1. We need to stop bashing OCP, WLP, GIA. Why? Because it is an absolute turn off to come on here all the time, and see more of the usual, bashing and tongue lashing that these companies receive. Anyone who reads the documents, and studies the documents, knows what would constitute quality, from less than quality music. As a DM with music influence as well as authority to make decisions musically for my parish, as well as influence other colleagues in my area, it is a major turn off to see the constant beating they take. Example: There are two major organ companies in the area, no need to name them, as I am sure we all know who they are. Well, one day, a church was going to install a new organ, and had meetings with both companies. The one company came in, and completely bashed the other's products. Needless to say, the bashed company got the organ sale. The pastoral staff was very put off by the tongue lashing the other company gave to the winning company. Have any of you seen any of the major 3 companies bashing each other, to advance their product?? In all my years, I have not. Recently, when I canceled my renewal with OCP, they never said anything about any other company, or knocked us, for selecting someone else.
2. We need to encourage the composers and musicians of good quality music. Why is the Big "3" so successful in selling their products? Let's look at this for a moment: The major 3 offer countless products to fill the needs of those, with ease.
If you need books for funerals, they have that and offer it. Need something for RCIA masses? They have books or resources available for that. They have a large variety, and offer it in a way that is very quickly accessible. We have so many wonderful composers on here, to name a few Richard Rice, Adam Bartlett, Prof. Ford, Jeff Ostrowski, Ryand, and many others, (please forgive me for not mentioning all names), that are trying their best, and doing a great job, in bettering the musical situation.
Here are some practical suggestions with regards to the composers; Often times you have music in thousands of different threads. As a DM, I am not going to search through all these countless threads, to find music thrown here and there. It would be very very helpful, to have a central location for all of these wonderful works. To consolidate, and make them more concise, and available very quickly. Why do people use Respond & Acclaim Psalms? They open up the book to ### Sunday, and boom, there is the psalm, and alleluia with verses all written out. It is quick, it accessible. To search all over the place for psalms, from here and there. Isn't going to influence DM's in the majority of the churches. Having things accessible is everything. It's curb appeal. We need more variety for propers, and complete works. I have to search for a book that has propers for entrance, than another for communion, than on the off chance that their might be one for offertory. Making all the resources more available in a location, makes it definitely easier.
Another thought is this, I am an organist. I am not chanting these propers a capella. I don't like it, and the people in my church do not like having music without the organ. They paid thousands for it, and will be paying thousands more for the pipe organ we are working on right now. They aren't interested in a capella chant, and neither am I. I paid a fortune to study organ, and organ performance, and have no desire to convert my congregation to a capella only.
There is a need to have organ accompaniments for these wonderful works and propers, ordinaries, etc... Why is the big three doing well? They offer an accompaniment book for this and that, most times, free with certain amounts of orders. They offer all these resources, readily available. Let's face it, people like having the ease of just having something right there.
What can we do to promote good solid music? Keep encouraging the wonderful composers on here. Providing feedback, that could help to better assist in future products, this way they are enchanced. As an example, look at Vatican II hymnal. If we are so upset with the big 3, then why not continue to support companies like Vatican II, providing practical suggestions, that will help continue their growth. Variety is another thing. I like SEP, probably as others do, and Ryand does a great job with now providing organ accompaniments to some of the propers. In a continued effort, we need more varieties. A lot of DM friends that I know, don't like having to try to piece mill things together off of here. If we could somehow get everyone together to be on the same page, and provide their settings, and "complete" works, it would allow more of an opportunity to grow in the right direction.
The big 3 continue to grow because, they have good advertising, offer non-combative, tongue lashing, clinics and workshops, as well as creating products to address the various needs. One thing I noted is, Liturgical press has the Psallite Antiphons, which appear to carry Entrance, Offertory, and Communion antiphons all in one book. Anyone thought to compose a similiar product, "with organ accompaniment", to this effort? Clinics, how many chant clinics are being offered around the nation? Probably not as many clinics for the other products being offered, thats for sure. We need more opportunities for educational growth and development.
We can change the element of music in the church, just take leads and examples from the big companies. It doesn't start from calling the congregation, and begging them to ban books from the big 3. It's not going to happen. This has to be won from the bottom up, and can be done, if done in a smart manner. Love me or hate me from all the above, but these are some thoughts and perspectives from a DM that can effect change at his level. -
Which is why, it would be wonderful, if we could organize all the composers on here, and get them to publish their works, even if they utilize the commons licensing, but to make them more efficient and available. I love the works that come off the site, especially using JMO's psalms, as well as Richard Rice's, which have been a hit so far. I just think if we would market the ideas of the CMAA in a more positive light, bringing out the appropriate music, than it could very well compete, and produce the results, everyone is hoping for.
The more organized things are, the better the position to advance quality sacred music, would be in.
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DougS, I think you might have missed my point. While some on here may be published, they are not known, are hard to find, to the average DM, and are not promoted, as are the composers in the big "3". Trying to bring together the great minds, into one good domain, i.e. company, site, whatever the case may be; to help promote more of this great music outside of the other options, would pay off greatly.
Again, why is the music you hear in the average church, OCP, WLP, GIA? Because they promote it heavily, and have for many years. So how about grouping together all the talent on here, working on diversifying things up, more propers, more options, and promoting it under a big name, such as that of CMAA, Corpus Christi Watershed, Illuminare....... anything to get this music, everyone desires, out there and more easily available to the average DM.
That's my point. -
As I am being singled out here, I need to make some things perfectly clear here. I serve as a cantor at my father's parish and as a substitute cantor, as many of you well know. I have had to endure several years of bad music from OCP, GIA and WLP.
Through this forum, I have gotten the courage to take the proverbial bull by the horns and make some positive change at my dad's parish, although I have not been able to break the OCP stranglehold in my own. My father's pastor has been gracious enough to be open to using the SEPs, something that I have done for the better part of a year. Although I do not know how to read music, I have been able to chant the SEPs, thanks to the YouTube tutorial.
This "bashing" that the OP complains about comes from frustration with the lack of quality sacred music that these publishing houses offer. -
I understand your frustration BG, and do sympathize with it, and agree there needs to be a higher quality of music. I don't dispute that at all. What I take issue with, is your constant bashing or defamation, at those particular 3. Honestly, I think everyone here knows and recognizes the quality, and can put two and two together. So, why not come up with solutions. You don't need to be a master music reader, organist, etc... to employ good strategies to over come the issues at hand. Just work positively towards educating, providing, putting form, and guiding others, so that they can find good high quality music.
Which is why I suggested to you in the Colloquium 2013 thread, to see if you could set up a chant workshop in your area. I believe it would be very fruitful. I wish they had one where I am at, I would love to attend one nearby. It is also why I suggested we need more clinics and workshops geared to high quality music. I believe through good education, sacred music can turn around for the better.
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I do not think that it is defamation. It is honesty. OCP claims to base itself on the Church documents. My questions are: Which Church and which documents? Where is the quality control?
You were the one who singled me out. -
Yes, amongst the others that constantly bash, and if you look at the definition of defamation, that is what it constitutes. The church has not outwardly or in any way claimed the "3" are in violation of it's rules, and therefore going further is a form of defamation of their character.
Again, solutions. Call and ask them how they evaluated things, get their emails and letters, but again to constantly vilify them.... -
Nor has Joe Biden's bishop came out and told him not to receive communion. That doesn't mitigate the fact that he holds public views in opposition with church teaching, and that he is in fact "in violation of the rules."
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That may be, and that's between him, and the church. Ben you seem to be pretty intelligent, look up the definition of slander and defamation of character, and then get back to me. You are on a public forum, and as such, when you make constant statements that defame an entity, allbeit, not following the guidelines, in accordance to your views, the constant bashing need not occur. I am sure that also falls under values of being a good Catholic.
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In defence of GIA, they do offer pretty high quality octavos of music that is truly sacred.
And (I can't believe I'm saying this) I've heard Haugen's 'Mass of Creation' sung by a rather good choir with an excellent organist (he did do some improvisational adapting of the accompaniments and there were no guitars) and kinda thought it worked. -
It also helps that the big publishers have marketing and sales departments whose sole responsibility is to get you to buy things.
I find it hard to fault an individual human being for not being a marketing machine.Thanked by 1Jeffrey Quick -
Michael,
OCP, GIA, WLP are public companies with a very public product which is wildly successful, in terms of market penetration. Following your general idea of people being able to tell good from bad: if they could do so these companies would either change their offerings or be out of business. Evidently one of three things is true, since you've already asserted that the music isn't good: people don't recognize it as bad; people who see it's bad don't know that anything else is available or allowed; intertia.
If they don't know it's bad -- in the sense of contrary to composition techniques followed by sacred music -- someone surely needs to tell them. If they know it's bad but don't know what to do about it -- which I suspect is an enormous percentage, which used to include me -- there are resources available, even on the internet, which are helpful. Finding these can take some effort, which is absolutely worthwhile, but uncommon among American Catholics because of INERTIA.
I confess that I haven't read everything which "BenedictGal" has posted here, lacking time, among other things, but I don't see how calumny, detraction or slander can be remotely applicable to what she has posted in regard to these very public companies.
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I have to agree with BenedictGal. My new parish has OCP missals, and there's some truly horrendous stuff in there. Some of the so called responsorial psalm settings take liberties with the text, despite the fact that the book has no approval whatsoever (making them illict to use at Mass, yet I'm sure many do, since they are marketed as responsorial psalms).
One of the books designed for Mass even includes "Lean on Me," for pete sake. If that isn't secular and against the church's documents, I don't know what is.
I completely understand BG's frustration. They both offer some high quality stuff (GIA more than OCP, to be sure), but there is so much junk in there that is absolutely horrible and heretical. My bishop has had to speak publicly against many of the popular songs that are sung today, such as Gather us In, City of God, etc.
Michael:
defamation of character: Any intentional false communication, either written or spoken, that harms a person's reputation; decreases the respect, regard, or confidence in which a person is held; or induces disparaging, hostile, or disagreeable opinions or feelings against a person.
slander: defamation; calumny, A malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report
It's not false communication. What she's saying is not false. What BG has said is that the big 3 publish a lot of trash that is against the spirit of the church's documents. The key thing here is that what she is saying is not false. She's dead on. She may not get anywhere in some cases, due to parish politics, but that doesn't mean the publisher's are automatically right. The biggest thing that comes to mind are those unapproved psalms.
They simply change the text of the psalms and market them as if they were to be used after the first reading. How can that be anything but wrong?
Is some it frustration coming out? Certainly. But is the content of what she's saying wrong? Not that I've seen yet. -
I agree with everyone, in the sense that, some things coming out of the big three, are definitely not in tune with the thinking of "sacred" music. My post isn't an attempt to justify them at all, or by any means. To cgz, to clarify my comments, they stem from post after post of the usual bashing, not necessarily this post. As well as spilling over from a few other Catholic forums, where the usual suspects take their fight.
Again, not in defense of either of the three, as out of the more than 6500 discussions on this site, I am sure the big 3 have come under enough attack to help steer those that don't know. Yes, we all know, the big 3 are so bad. Now moving on and in a more "Catholic" sense, solutions.
Now that we recognize that the "3" have done so, no more dead horse beating is really needing. Solutions are needed. If we are so dissatisfied with all their music, let's work towards promoting ways to educate other DMs, future DM's, and PIP's, in Sacred music. Trying to get some of the composers on here, that do have excellent compositions, propers, masses, etc... to be able to make them more accessible. Gathering up some way or place to put all these works, and to help give them feedback to create more, such as propers.
As well as educating other muscians, DMs, and pastors, with clinics and workshops. This is a great way to bring about positive change.
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On one hand, I agree that criticizing some publisher for issuing lots of inappropriate music is not defamation.
On the other hand, there can be such a thing as too much criticism, especially if it seems to be habitual or undiscerning. After all, not everything issued by the big publishers is inappropriate.
I don't think any of us wants to cultivate a reputation of being The Cranky Guy on the forum -- and we don't want to give this forum the image of being dominated by cranky people.
Happily, we have leadership in the CMAA who set a good example: praising what is good, and acknowledging what is not so good, and yet keeping the focus on the improvements we can make.
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Agreed. Though keep in mind, a lot of those coming in here for the first time, have no idea that this "cranky" guy attitude, isn't the attitude of the general CMAA. When I first got here, excited to see music moving in a positive direction, only to find the, "usual" cranky guy syndrom over the pervasive "3", my thoughts are like, are these people for real? So much so, I was talking to a friend a few weeks ago who came on, and said, ahh forget it, it's just a big "bashing" party, and left. Someone I was trying to convince to look at the Sacred music aspect.
Nonetheless that aggravated me. Here I had a chance to show someone something different, and to give something a chance, and there are the usual suspects, at it again. It's a major turn off. Question is this, does everyone on here, "really" want to advance the cause of the CMAA and the movement towards Sacred music. Trying to extend olive branches to others that have used these things, and explain things to them, should be a good goal. As to not turn others off by the usual banter.
You probably should put a disclaimer on the website, "the comments and views expressed on this forum, are that solely of their forum members, and not that of the CMAA." I am very dishearted to try to promote fine music, bring a few friends in here, only to have them tell me no thanks,,,, it was just what they envisioned, lots of angry banter all the time.
Now, getting backing to the major point of this thread, promoting the composers and musicians on here, that can make a difference. This is where we need to work, where we can sow and reap big rewards. -
From the laptop keys of a living composer...
New sacred music composition is NOT as important as performing the right sacred music at today's liturgy. Promoting new sacred music composition is not as important as DOING the best of what already exists.
New sacred music composition is a BENEFIT to those who are ALREADY performing excellent sacred music.
What is DESPERATELY needed is education and resources to better the sacred music performed at today's liturgy.
MichaelM is truly onto the need. Marketing is a necessary evil. There is nothing wrong with marketing. It CANNOT be driven by the dollar. It must be driven by principle. As long as putting sacred music in the liturgy is the goal, no holds barred.
I am onto this project. I am about creating the Big 4th. Nothing like the three, but just as savvy.
I will tell you all about it when the time is right. -
Francis, I look forward to that, and my prayers are sincerely with you! I would love to see a big "4" but for the right reasons, and definitely something to give us more material, I am not talking about all brand new "contemporary" works, but more propers, antiphons, more options to use to bring the Mass back to a Sacred one.
And instead of worrying about the big 3, I would love to see us all promote the big 4th, above all of that! -
Less Cranky Guy,
Local level workshops and lectures on Sacred Music and liturgy. I have done these in a small way for my Parish and they have been helpful.
As reference material, I have handed out sheets with notable quotes and links to helpful sites including, chant cafe, musicasacra.com and links to CCWatershed and Aristotle. People have liked seeing a variety of sites and resources. Perhaps we could generate a ready made page that is larger than the one I had. With links to organ accomps to the ICEL Mass and other useful materials that we could always be ready to hand out as a resource thus promoting Sacred Music and providing people with access to further materials.
Staying away from the 3 publishers as much as possible.Thanked by 1ContraBombarde -
Perhaps Noel Jones would chime in here?
My wife and I are going to be working with him in an attempt to do basically what you describe in your initial post, Michael. The goal is to be sort of a clearing house for the best of contemporary composers' works: comprehensive, easily-accessible, and thoroughly both Catholic and sacred.Thanked by 1ContraBombarde -
That would be awesome. I really do look forward to that. My concerns are this, I would love to have more propers of the Mass. Those that have done them, and have them out there, have done a great job. But I feel there needs to be more variety, as the composers that currently work on all of this, are probably spread very thin. If would could just have as francis suggested, a big "4th" but in terms of Sacred music, that of the CMAA idiology, that would be terrific! I know JMO has been doing a wonderful job with his work, but is probably spread very thin between VTII and the new St. Edmund hymnal.
I hope you guys do get something going, and that it could be something that, we as forum members, could promote to our other friends, colleagues and contacts. My frustration is, we need more of this, and instead of fighting the "3" which isn't going to get us anywhere, let's get a 4th, but a strong "4th", doing just that, working towards consolidating a lot of these wonderful works. -
I would like to see something similar to a bible study I have been using by the "St. Paul Society". Dr. Hahn and his com-padres have made bible instruction very easy. There is one low price that the instructors pay for. It includes brochures, a power point presentation and a manual that describes the lesson in such detail that you simply read it. The power point presentation follows the lesson book and gives cues as to when to change slides. These lessons are for 6 weeks but maybe someone could produce something similar for a weekend seminar.
I also think a 4th publisher would be a good idea. I think CCWatershed would say they are trying that now.
I don't think a clearing house is what we need. I like Choral Wiki but it isn't quite what we need either. Something more would be needed.
Just my thoughts -
Someone else mentioned elsewhere the idea of local colloquia taking the place of the annual national Colloquium. Would this fit in? I guess the question is: How far would JMO be willing to drive?
Also, reading SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM for the first time makes we wonder at the possibility of earning ourselves seats on the local music or liturgy committee, or starting one if there isn't already one.
For those in as much ignorance as I was earlier today, the relevant excerpt:F) The Promotion of Pastoral-Liturgical Action
43. Zeal for the promotion and restoration of the liturgy is rightly held to be a sign of the providential dispositions of God in our time, as a movement of the Holy Spirit in His Church. It is today a distinguishing mark of the Church's life, indeed of the whole tenor of contemporary religious thought and action.
So that this pastoral-liturgical action may become even more vigorous in the Church, the sacred Council decrees:
44. It is desirable that the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, set up a liturgical commission, to be assisted by experts in liturgical science, sacred music, art and pastoral practice. So far as possible the commission should be aided by some kind of Institute for Pastoral Liturgy, consisting of persons who are eminent in these matters, and including laymen as circumstances suggest. Under the direction of the above-mentioned territorial ecclesiastical authority the commission is to regulate pastoral-liturgical action throughout the territory, and to promote studies and necessary experiments whenever there is question of adaptations to be proposed to the Apostolic See.
45. For the same reason every diocese is to have a commission on the sacred liturgy under the direction of the bishop, for promoting the liturgical apostolate.
Sometimes it may be expedient that several dioceses should form between them one single commission which will be able to promote the liturgy by common consultation.
46. Besides the commission on the sacred liturgy, every diocese, as far as possible, should have commissions for sacred music and sacred art.
These three commissions must work in closest collaboration; indeed it will often be best to fuse the three of them into one single commission. -
Here is follow up for @BenYanke
http://archive.lifenews.com/nat4200.html
Biden was asked not to receive the sacrament of communion.
As well as several other politicians. -
The change that is desired is going to take years to happen. The most successful way to bring about change is through gradually implementing this change. GIA, OCP, and WLP are realities. They exist and are not going anywhere. Yes, there is plenty of bad stuff out there, yet I just saw the new book of chant that Fr. Ruff has produced that is being published through GIA. And I admire the work of people like Proulx, Hurd (David, that is), Nestor, Westendorf, Fr. Chepponis, and Fr. Ruff. There are many others. I think a big issue is the lack of formation and education of many music ministers out there, and too many clergy that simply don't care. I don't blame the musicians-many are part time, have little to work with in terms of singers and instruments and just don't have the training. They do the best they can. As was said in earlier posts, "big 3" market well and their product is convenient. Unfortunately, too many musicians simply don't have the tools to discern what's good and what's not so good.
I witnessed something interesting about two weeks ago. I was visiting my mother on Cape Cod and went with her to Mass. The music was not great (and the organ was an old Allen which didn't help) but the organist had some facility but had no sense of playing to lead a congregation and the cantor was a young man, probably in high school. There were diction and vocal issues, but with a little training, he could be a fine young cantor. Both musicians were far from being lost causes. They need encouragement. They should encourage, and expect, training for their musicians and should do everything they can to get them that training, either through groups like CMAA, or NPM, or AGO, and should help them financially with voice or organ study.
In the meantime, there are many in our communities that like a lot of what the "big 3" offer. We can't just simply ignore this fact. Many experienced this music at important points in their faith journey. We can't afford to alienate them. We need to continue to stretch and expand their horizons through teaching, and exhibit a high degree of patience and charity. -
MichaelM, thank you for this thoughtful post.Thanked by 1ContraBombarde
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The big three are not growing. NPM is not growing. The AGO has no interest in getting involved in the mess that is Catholic Church Music....nor does NPM.
"So much so, I was talking to a friend a few weeks ago who came on, and said, ahh forget it, it's just a big "bashing" party, and left. Someone I was trying to convince to look at the Sacred music aspect. "
Medical science has had to put up with this same problem for years. Anyone who is pushing a new procedure that can cure people has to expect she and her followers to be accused of bashing when they are trying to improve things.
Musica Sacra is growing. Do we need a T-Shirt, "I BASH TRASH MUSIC?"
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Irish Tenor, thanks!
Here's the proposal:
There is excellent music being written and published and we find out about it here through a posting and sales....or free downloads....are flowing out the door for awhile. But then things die, the composer feels unappreciated and begins to drink...and he/she gets an urge to write contemporary music with guitars and tambourines....
Is that really want we want to happen?
I am proposing that cooperative group be formed in which composers works would be listed and sold....but even more, be promoted in a regular fashion outside of these hallowed walls.
I have done a little work in this manner on my own projects and want to permit others to participate. Of course, the idea of a clearing house scares some people, my friend John Bishop runs the Pipe Organ Clearing House and when you talk to local pipe organ tuners/builders and such you can see some of them turning red, "They're willing to bring that organ down and install it themselves." Angry because they want the work for themselves and want total control from day one...
There is a great need for small businesses to pop up taking advantage of this new market before the big three make a total about-face transition to try and control this market as well.
It won't be free to be part of the cooperative, but it won't take money out of your pocket.
Thanked by 1tomboysuze -
Here's a thought... Imagine that an upstart clearinghouse manages to demonstrate that there is indeed a market demand for this great music. In a couple of years, one of the Big 3 notices and starts to publish it themselves. They bring their Big Marketing Engine to bear, increasing its exposure to the mainstream. DMs who have been trained to follow the lead of Big 3 will seriously evaluate this music.
We'd never have to build a fourth large publishing house. Just demonstrate that a market exists, and let market forces take over.
Just a scenario. -
If it won't be free to be part of the cooperative, then where does the money go?
What about music that is made freely available by the composer/arranger/editor? I assume this is outside the purview of such a cooperative as described above. Does one have to find another, separate outlet or clearinghouse for free sacred music?
By and large, parish musicians have very limited budgets and must resort to significant amounts of music that is freely available, whether public domain or freely licensed non-public domain. The CPDL ChoralWiki does this for all genres of choral/vocal music and has indexing and listing capabilities that could cater to sacred music for the liturgy and office. Of course, it is not an outlet for music that is for sale or share.
Elsewhere there has been floated the idea of a "Liturgical Music" wiki (on which I have commented and suggested that I might be able to offer considerable assistance). Such a venture can work for all kinds of sacred music, free or not. I truly am somewhat surprised that Musica Sacra has not started up or (co-)sponsored such a wiki or other site. (That other discussion is here)
Why not have a MusicaSacraWiki? I've given it extensive thought already and can offer, at very least, wiki structural and organizational suggestions that would make it a viable clearinghouse and source for such music – and, once such a wiki project goes forward, provide extensive implementation help.
Chuck Giffen -
Carl D.:
If we have a clearing house/outlet that makes available both freely and non-freely licensed music, it probably will not be of interest to the big 3, and we'd be providing something they wouldn't want to touch because of their bottom lines. -
I think your idea is a great one, CH and I support your decision to start and run one.
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The matter of "where the money goes" in the building of this cooperative is simple, almost all of it into the pocket of the person who has created the music. A cooperative may also choose to offer free music and the musicians who do so, as I have for some time now, get their name out and their music heard.
This portion is used to pay people to do what most musicians, myself included, have little ability or interest in doing....putting a public face on what we do in different venues around the world. For those that feel that they should get the full amount of what is sold, I suggest that they are free to do so and have no need to be part of this coop....that way they get 100% of nothing.
And here is the most important part, joining and being part of the cooperative is free. You don't pay a cent. If someone buys something that you wrote, you get most of the money.
Now, this also means that, since it is free, you have no control whatsoever about what goes on in the coop...we just all agree to try and cooperate to promote sacred music.
It's like this. A priest hires you to compose music for his scola. Cool, eh? But you also have to mow the grass around the church as part of the deal. You have a choice, mow it yourself, or hire a neighbor kid to mow it for you.
Having tightened the battery connection bolts on my wife's mower, she's out doing that....must be why this example popped up.
I do heartily encourage a free WIKI, it is needed. But that's not what the coop is all about. It's about attracting and focusing the public's attention.
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Before anyone thinks that I am proposing something new, most of the publications that people buy here come from LULU, which creates a webpage for the book, prints the book, handles the credit card transaction and mails the book to the customer and a periodic check to the writer.
LULU does not promote books beyond what it does, aside from listing them if you want, on AMAZON.
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Hi Carl D, I do agree with you, in that, the big 3 would have faired well to have picked up on this market, probably a lot sooner, rather than later. The only thing that I could imagine might concern some of the folks on here, would be placing this great responsibility in the hands, where some consider that the big 3 have acted irresposibly. If perhaps they had a department dedicated to this, with CMAA minded people on board, overseeing and administering the projects, it might work. The other thing is, would it be promoted as aggressively as the other products have been? All in all, it would be nice if they could offer these products, and work towards this effort.
CHGiffen, I definitely support that idea. I sure hope someone could get that going. It would definitely be an asset to have such a resource. -
@frogmannoeljones,
"Having tightened the battery connection bolts on my wife's mower, she's out doing that....must be why this example popped up."
your wife's mower??? uhhh perhaps you should get out there and mow it!! stop being lazying, sipping on a 40, with a tamborine in hand!! ROFL hahaahaha -
I was hoping someone might enjoy the mower comment.
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I did for sure, lol......
hey, at least we can all laugh once in a while, can be so serious all the time... life flies right by :D -
heres the thing... i feel:
we have to BE in print.
we have to have a non profit name (with three letters)
we have to wean people off of the existing music with a progressive program
a pastor commits the parish to the program
it includes education, music, hymnals, (more like a missal), manuals for how to bring the program to your parish, temporary missalettes that graduate to a permanent solution, CDs of the music so amateurs can learn it, all laid out in spiral bound books that include the entire mass for each sunday... and a lot more
r u getting the picture?
i am talking comprehensive. i am talking serious investors. it means getting into publishing for real... online is not the meat and potatoes... online is the bonus for those who buy the books. if you want to compete its going mean full time for as many as are willing to jump in and move on location to make it happen.
i don't think anything less will cut the mustard. -
This thread teeters precipitously upon the edge of insanity. I guess that makes me the "cranky old man." Fine.
Yes, what the Roman Catholic Church in the US of A needs is yet another commercially-based mega publisher of sound orthodoxy that will garner the affection of all, not the least of which is a majority consensus of bishops who didn't have the gumption to submit SttL for any curial approbation, and who routinely table all things liturgical to their local "handlers." And, of course, all of the networking with the RE people, NPM in terms of product development and coordination will roll out with precision and timing so as to turn all heads to the fourth three initial "big gun house" and Cardinal Dolan will just straighten out Portland and Chicago with his sheer presence and grant special endorsement status....sure, sure, sure.
In the midst of an economy that teeters more precipitously so that should we even bump up against another recession, which is NOT unfortunately what forecasters, short of Bernanke are predicting, who do we all think will become expendable when it's a choice between paying the mortgage, car loan, food/gas OR keeping the tithe strong during the passing of the collection plate/basket?
I'd say Noel's scenario of the esteemed local DM having landscaping, plumbing and custodial duties grandfathered into their gigs might not be so fantastic and not even undesirable. Many of us will be out pounding pavement and busking in Rapid Transit stations. The ultimate triumph of the guitarists!
Sweet dreams.
In the meanwhile, I merely thank God for CMAA, CPDL and other composers whose talent is matched by their love and compassion by putting material into the commons, this is the church that will live from the grass roots up. -
Michael,
People come on here for lots of reasons. If Benedictgal, who I respect, has frustrations, it might be more than just NOT liking the Big Three's Music. Actually, I know it's not, as much of what she says, (though I don't read everything) is what I'm thinking. I simply see this junk as a major cause for the faithlessness you see amongst our young Catholic people, from a vast amount of personal experience and the ability to make observations. If you are in a more optimistic, "let's go get 'em and make a difference" mood, praise God! It takes all types.
Your comment and rebuke to Benedictgal also is an unfair rebuke at someone with whom you don't have enough information to criticize. Perhaps like her and others who have specifically had this ambition, I long to bring the souls in front of me, here and now, up to a grander, more full vision of God, through the beauty of the sacred, a reality that won't just change preferences, but WHO they serve and HOW they serve. I can't do it because of politics, of which the Big 3 play a predominate roll, willingly or not.
So let's do something great! But I think it is a mistake to criticize those who mourn, for the pain might still be much closer to them than it is for you. (And Benedictgal, I don't mean to limit your role to that of the negative, for I don't think that is accurate - I am merely trying to defend your right to express those opinions). -
I do like some of the ideas on here but if you are going to compete with the big 3 you need to be better then they are or at least equal.
I would think better. They have hymnals and missals printed out, some for an entire year, some for each season. They sell individual pieces and have resources for ministers of music to help select music.
One problem would be how do we or do we verify if the content is worthy to be published by the "co-op". Who makes that decision and wouldn't it be subjective. -
Isn't CMAA non-profit? Isn't non-profit a huge advantage? And even if we aren't non-profit, isn't just about everything the CMAA comes out with immediately put into the public domain if it isn't already?
Kevin Allen deserves his due moolah, to be sure, but between the SEP and Hymns in the Commons generally all the best music is in the public domain these days. -
I would agree, but I think an organized method of delivery. Like the big 3 but only with volunteers, an organized grass roots effort. Close to what is being done now but on a larger scale.
One of the posts stated it can take hours to search for a piece of music.
I know that I have been trying to get sacred music in my church for a couple of years now. Trying to educate the volunteer choirs as to what sacred music even is. But they look at me like I'm the only one in the world who believes the way I do.
It would be extremely helpful if we could stand as a united front. With all of us in pushing the same goal in all the churches across the US how could we not effect some kind of change. It wouldn't need to be a drastic change lets have a 10 year plan.
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