Frogman,

I like what you are saying. Makes total sense.
Only one flaw in your position. No one not one person in my church understands Latin. So are you saying that I should not do any Latin chants until I can teach some Latin.

FNJ is right.... and he is wrong, too.
I think that to suggest that chant and our beloved polyphony are the only music which is a servant of the word is a very highly subjective and really not objectively tenable proposition. Would he deny us the masterful wedding of text and words by such as Howells? Vaughan Williams? Britten? et al.? There is even Handel which stirs the soul with its treatment of text (the melody of 'Comfort ye', for instance, goes begging for sense without its words, as does quite a bit of chant). Actually, I too would like to legislate a few (inevitably subjective) criteria for liturgical music; but, I fear that I might inadverantly disqualify a gifted composer who had thought of some marvelous things that I hadn't. I hear them every day from English cathedrals.
And, it is more than a little bit bold to trot out the old 2's and 3's theory as if it were uncontested dogma. One will never find mention of it in journals of the Plainsong and Mediaeval Music Society.

The music is there to serve the liturgy. If you don't understand this, then you're never going to be a good church musician.

"Would he deny us the masterful wedding of text and words by such as Howells? Vaughan Williams? Britten? et al.? There is even Handel which stirs the soul with its treatment of text (the melody of 'Comfort ye', for instance, goes begging for sense without its words, as does quite a bit of chant)."

You have totally missed the point, based upon your criticism of what I have said. Chant and much of polyphony puts the words first. The rhythms of the music are built to emphasize the text.

"masterful wedding of text and words by such as Howells? Vaughan Williams? Britten? et al.?" is proof that these are great liturgical music.

I've never said a church should only sing chant and polyphony, only that the church shoudl only permit music which is liturgy-appropriate in the wedding of words and music,.

Donr, there are wonderful chant settings in English. My book (apologies for the ad) If You Can Sing Joy To The World....has only English language gregorian chants for just the situation you are describing. And all the teaching sung files are sung by the masterful Matthew Curtis....listen to the audio files (ALL FREE) to him singing Hosanna, to the Son of David and tell me that your congregation would not love to hear and your choir want to sing that!

It is easier, I think, to teach chanting and latin separately in many situations. Get them chanting, let them hear latin and they themselves will begin to express an interest.

Go to www.thecatholicchoirbook.com for the free download of the IF YOU CAN book and audio and teaching video which runs on iPad and others. See CHANT SCHOOL.

Monsignor Francis P. Schmitt, the former director of music at Boys Town and editor of Caecilia, observed how masses from the Viennese orchestral tradition (Haydn, Mozart, etc.) conveyed the words in a much clearer, more declarative manner than 16th-century polyphony.

Francis and Mark, I am sensitive to both your points and sympathetic to Francis'. But one has to allow that the "peepstones" through which we view past practice and valued opinion have improved and brought issues into sharper focus.
The same inquiry of "classical Masses" could be levied upon the Vierne Mass heard at SLC under Horst, but was immediately mitigated upon the first strains of the Kyrie and through to the Agnus Dei (which almost was a skosh too romantic, but didn't rip the veil). Again, our minds must remain open so that the unexpected graces can have access to the soul.

charles

not sure i heard the same kyrie as you mentioned above,(found it on youtube) but pieces like that might be appropriate for very large scale solemn events, although to me, they really border on being concert pieces. length is a big determinate in my mind, then continuity of form as it relalates to and supports the text and liturgical action. at some point in the complex fabric of a work the balance tips toward the music and less toward the text. that, i believe, is where restraint in harmonic development, change of mood and dynamics needs to be approached with great skill as a composer of sacred music for the liturgy.

we have seen many solemn liturgies where the focus is volleyed from altar to choirloft almost seeming like one stops for a moment in deference to the other. music should always serve the text and action and not 'steal the altar'. tis a difficult and very delicate balance, and oftentimes the drive of musical creativity can overstep that fine line.

Francis, there are many among the CMAA membership with whom I've celebrated our raison d'etres at colloquia who would attest to my skepticism regarding performance Masses, not the least of which is Dr. Mahrt! And, if memory serves, he wrote a compelling essay defense of their value in SACRED MUSIC.
In this case, my very learned friend, the Vierne convinced this skeptic of the concept of "Being There." That is simply THE factor which cannot be imparted via YouTube or by all the eloquent critiques or analyses in prose for all the gold in the world. Heck, I remember my first exposure to WAM's REQUIEM, which IIRC was the broadcast of the (TLM) low Mass said by Cushing. I physically wasn't there as a 12 y.o. boy, but my BEING was THERE, thus the sacrality of that occasion is burned upon my heart. (I wasn't a church raised boy, btw.)
Now, 50 years later or so, I am no longer bound by didactic or dogmatic dictums to tell me whether whatever moment I've just experienced was sacrmentally authentic. YMMV

I am not bound by dictums either, Charles. I have had numerous encounters with the sublimety of 'sacred music' such as you... hardly any of them were during the liturgy, unfortunately. One of them was my first hearing the MTC performance of The Messiah on a record player when I was about 20. Will never be the same and will never forget it. Another was singing a Bach Cantata in college on a stage.

Music perfectly married to liturgy? Perhaps at the one colloquium I was fortunate enough to attend back in 2005. I told them it was like seven days in musical heaven on earth.

Otherwise "great music AT a liturgy" is most of what I have heard in my lifetime as opposed to the ideal of "true liturgical music". May have to wait for heaven, I guess.

Mozart and the classics are just too earthy and seem to express humanity more than the
mystical and ethereal that my soul craves.

Frogman!

These Masses are the refuge of Catholics who love music and singing and directing, but have not had the chance to be exposed to chant and polyphony, things often mentioned and passed on in music history class.

Really? I know of numerous churches where orchestra Masses, even Mozart and Haydn go hand in hand with beautiful GC propers.