Crummy Catholic Praise Music exists because the Protestants are playing a totally different game.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,607
    You really, really have to understand this. Protestant denominations - all of them - have a completely different goal and mindset. They are ALL competing for members. Newest songs, newest fad in church congregation building, in handling personal finances, in working out to get healthy, in supporting people with a huge variety of problems.

    The Catholic church is like the Amish. They exist and go on. They are not competing to steal members from protestant churches, nor stealing from other Catholic parishes. It's a monopoly.

    Therefore, all the bizarre trends in protestant worship which come about through marketing and advertising....create this image that Catholic churches need to do the same things...and when they do them they do them badly because, like the Amish, this stuff is not in their blood. But especially because protestant churches are usually run in some sort of democratic manner. Which sort of explains why Jimmy Swaggart is still on the air.

    The Catholic church is a kingdom. Off with the heads still rules.

    That's why the protestants do crummy praise music and do it very professionally, spending thousands upon thousands of dollars on musical equipment, audio equipment, smoke machines and all...they are spending money to draw in an audience. It's all a popularity contest.

    Off with their heads sort of quells any sort of popularity in the Catholic parishes.

    Thanked by 4Ben Chris Allen benedictgal E_A_Fulhorst
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Wow, so well said.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,020
    Except that, in urban and suburban areas (and many exurban areas), Catholic parishes have to compete since the shift in canon law in 1983, especially given the widening imperative for parishes to meet sacramental activity and financial thresholds to avoid being clustered or closed. The Catholic church is nominally a kingdom, but only a foolish pastor deludes himself that he will succeed by being a king in the mode of a one of an early modern nation state (Catholic monarchy is modeled more on the role of the Benedictine abbot than Louis XIV - a lot more consultation and collegiality is assumed in the culture of Romanitas).
    Thanked by 4Gavin CHGiffen chonak E_A_Fulhorst
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,607
    Liam,

    This is ridiculous. Sorry, but possibly you are in another country? This is how the Catholic church has always been run and, based upon what you've written CharlesW and I live in a diocese full of foolish pastors, with but maybe two exceptions....and those are old timers who know how to play the game without lowering their standards.

    The closing of churches is not something that can be saved because St. Rita's is drawing more people. Parishes that attempt to stay open that do things are struck down because the decisions are not made by what is happening this week, but what has happened over the last 40 years.

    Collegiality? Most diocese are ripped apart from within by the open acceptance and ordination of gay males who have no interest in being celibate....so you have two grousp at odds and that kills any chance of collegiality.

    And, as more than one member of this group knows, the gay priests actively persecute and victimize celibate gay-in-good-standing-with-the-church musicians. Of all people to do so?

    Speaking of the Benedictine and Louis XIV is a kind and noble thing but they Catholic church hardly reeks of any kind of nobility right now.

    Especially with the massive battle to do anything but what Benedict....who is only the pope...wants worship practice to be.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I admit that I don't speak fluent "frog" and sometimes I have to read slow but ... whaaaaaat Noel?

    How did this become a rant against gay priests? And these priests "victimize" the gay musicians? And this is all the real problem?
    Thanked by 4Gavin CHGiffen marajoy E_A_Fulhorst
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,175
    Sadly, in my area there are Catholics who go up the road (about 10-12 miles, staying in the diocese) or up the road and across the river (about 8-10 miles, crossing from Wisconsin into Minnesota and a different diocese) to be able to find Masses with beautiful sung Ordinary and Propers and strophic hymns with theologically sound texts and music that is not intended for (nor "performed" by) praise and glory type groups. That this is not too far a distance for those that make the trek seems a good thing to me and probably to most who frequent this forum.

    The local parish, which seems to pride itself as a (self-proclaimed) "progressive" parish, especially in terms of music, evidently loses constituents. However and sadly, since it is the largest parish in this part of the diocese, it doesn't really matter. Moreover, there are some Catholics in outlying areas that flock to the local parish precisely because of the "progressive" way things are done. It is the smaller parishes who see potential members going off to "progressive" or "protestanty" parishes that suffer the most.

    Chuck
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,189
    Noel, I think Liam is thinking about what is good practice, as opposed to describing what is typical practice.

    Thanked by 1Liam
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,607
    I think you are right and then so is he.

    Thanks.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,226
    And, as more than one member of this group knows, the gay priests actively persecute and victimize celibate gay-in-good-standing-with-the-church musicians.

    Pax, while that's not necessarily common, it is not unusual. You must remember that there is a 'gay mafia' element--it's a club--and whoever does not belong will be un-welcomed (so to speak.)

    It was the case, not more than 30 years ago, that 'straight' male church musicians were, if at all possible, frozen out of church positions, too. It's far less the case now (as with the above problem), but it happens.

  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,960
    All the Protestants are apparently not doing so well. I just saw this about the Episcopal church leaders wanting to sell their New York headquarters. They have lost members, and giving is down to the point they are having a real money crunch. They are also planning a vote on allowing pastors to bless same sex unions. Is this the blind leading the blind and both falling into the pit?

    http://www.christianpost.com/news/episcopal-church-leaders-vote-to-sell-ny-headquarters-77810/
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,175
    The Episcopal church is in such straits because of the attitudes and heretical stances by officials there at the highest levels.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,607
    The Tennessee episcopal church was against gay marriage, the priests voted for it....any questions, class?
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Dad - Oh, I'm aware of the first thing you mentioned, about straight male musicians being somewhat "frozen out."

    But promiscuous gay priests harrassing celibate gay musicians is a new one for me.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,960
    I hadn't heard of this, either. Of course, I am now 64-years-old, so no one seems to want to harrass me anymore. ;-)
    Thanked by 1Jeffrey Quick
  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    Protestants are playing a totally different game. Their form of worship only focuses on the Word. After the Biblical readings and the preaching, what is left but the singing?

    The Church, on the other hand, has the Word Made Flesh who becomes our Sacrifice. We go back to Calvary. Others list talk about it while we are really there, mystical, at every Mass. The music that Protestants use reflect the reality of what they are doing. The authentic sacred music of the Church should reflect the reality given to us by no less that Christ, Himself.
    Thanked by 2Chris Allen E_A_Fulhorst
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    If one wants to convince our protesting bros. and sisters in Christ to look into the serious enterprise of "Lex orandi, lex credendi," I would think that calling their worship practices "games" would not be an effective opening gambit, pardon the pun.
    Thanked by 2Gavin Spriggo
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,072
    CharlesW: It's not just a gay problem in ECUSA.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,960
    I have many friends in the ECUSA, and you are right, of course. They have many problems ranging from a lack of leadership, no consensus on what they even believe, and they have split into too many factions that can never reconcile because their differences are too great. I have said for some time, that it is pension plans and real estate that hold the ECUSA structure together.
  • E_A_FulhorstE_A_Fulhorst
    Posts: 381
    Ms. Gal is right: Six songs and a sermon, some Protestants say. And they laugh about it, as if nothing better were possible!
  • ScottKChicago
    Posts: 349
    An Episcopalian just chiming in here to say that any brief synopsis of The Episcopal Church's situation on this page is inevitably incomplete. Just suggesting people find out a bit more before generalizing. Thanks.
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