history of hymns replacing propers
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    The Church does not say that we have to have all Latin masses. Vernacular liturgies are allowed and are acceptable. No one needs to apologize for them. If we are discussing preferences, the desires of some on this forum for all Latin liturgies and EF masses are their own desires, not necessarily those of the Church. Not that there is anything wrong with Latin, but when Jesus looked down from the cross, the last thing on his mind was not likely the use of 4th-century street Latin in Roman Rite liturgies. I am afraid these statements of what the Church desires, are very narrow and individualistic, and tailored to suit individual preferences.
    Thanked by 1ContraBombarde
  • francis
    Posts: 10,821
    well, it is an over generalization, to say the least, but the point i am making is not about latin--the point i am stressing is that too many people want what THEY desire over what THE CHURCH desires.

    unfortunately that often crosses the line of what the church allows into questionable liturgical practce and abuse

    another analogy...

    when personal freedom outweighs right or wrong

    i have children and we live on a cliff which is in the back yard. i say to my kids (especially the three year old), "by the way kids, i am not putting up a fence or boundary marker of any kind in our back yard cause i don't want to offend what you might desire, so please remember that i dont want you playing any closer than 2 feet from the edge of the cliff! now go have fun with that football!"

    none of the kids ever asked for a blueprint of the playing field, took stock of the height of the cliff, learned about previous games played in their back yard, etc. they just jumped into the game and allowed fate to dictate their outcome.

  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    I agree. Excesses and peculiarities can be found in many places in both the EF and the OF.
  • E_A_FulhorstE_A_Fulhorst
    Posts: 381
    Really, isn't the goal: What best expresses the theology of the Mass as Sacrifice?
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    In practice, there are differences, although both contain many of the same elements. There have been revisions to the missal (thankfully), the choice of canons is greater, we now have GIRM to follow and, of course, vernacular liturgy.

    Chas, that's 'distinction without difference.'

    And you're not the only one who recalls the 25-minute low Mass--I was an altar boy at hundreds of 'em.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Ah, the good old days! The race between cantor and priest to finish, done so fast that even those familiar with Latin couldn't understand a word. Anyone remember the Gradual? Rogation Days? Ember Days?

    You mean you are not 29? LOL.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    "Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them."

    - Sacrosanctum Concilium 54 (Vatican II Constitution on the Liturgy)

    Therefore, I see it to be the case that a Parish should be familiar with the ordinary of the mass both in the vernacular and Latin.

    Vernacular Liturgies are perfectly fine. However, we need to instruct all the congregation in the use of Latin.

    The ICEL chant mass settings are almost identical to their Latin counterparts. Hence, I get people familiar with the English version, and then interpolate the Latin ones. They know how the tune goes, and then it is merely a matter of teaching the different words.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    My choirmaster told me about the time when he began to re-introduce Latin to the Liturgies. The clergy were afraid that the people would leave in droves. Much to the surprise of all and sundry, it was a drawcard for people! We're in a very multicultural part of town, where most people speak a second language anyway, and Latin was just yet another language to them.

    We get teenagers coming up after mass and telling us how "cool" they think the Latin singing and the organ music is. Palestrina, Byrd, Tallis, Tye, Victoria, etc. They're all loved. On St John the Baptist we did Dvorak's mass in D (the Kyrie and the Agnus Dei were slightly truncated for practicality), but the congregation loved the Gloria... all 8 minutes of it. Then we did Missa Papae Marcelli for the feast of Peter and Paul, which was also an ordination mass.

    Last year for the 25th Anniversay mass we ended with the Vaughn Williams Te Deum in G... yup all 9 minutes of it. 3 visiting Bishops all wanted to know if we could come and do it in their Cathedral Church

    Only a few years earlier, he was on the receiving end of a blast of rage because the gloria at the Christmas midnight mass went for a whole 4 minutes...
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