notation and translation
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    I just got a copy of Graduale Simplex. I'm thinking of using it for my beginning schola. I need some help using this book. Why there aren't any dotted punctum? Do I hold the end of phrase when I feel needed? Where can I find traslations of Propers? It seems to be different from Gregorian Missal.
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 993
    There is a guide published by CanticaNova that translates the introductory material. I have a strange recollection that the dotted punctum is "the property" of Solesmes - and this book was not prepared by them. It is the work of Dom Cardine under a mandate from Rome.

    A principal difference is the use of a limited number of propers. The best place to find a translation is Dr. Paul Ford's most excellent "By Flowing Waters," an English-language version of the GS. My own experience is that the English works better than the Latin. Your choir and congregation can then understand the text and will be more patient with the rather monotonous quality of the chants. (At the same time, I wish Dr. Ford hadn't used the phrase "bread nutritious" in the short form of Lauda Sion. But I quibble.)
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Yes, these are seasonal propers. I can recall being very excited to get the Simplex and then, like nearly everyone else who has felt the same way, bailing out of it and not using it at all. In fact, it is used very little. If you are going to go to effort to learning how to read the neumes, why not use the real thing? The reductions really aren't that much help. And personally, I find the absence of solesmes markings to be a big inconvenience for singers. you end up adding them in anyway. It was not a copyright thing; it was an ideological thing that grew out of the conviction that Solesmes has corrupted the purity of the chant by adding dots and episemas. We can argue about this all day but the absence of any markings create more work for everyone.

    Also, the book falls apart.
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 857
    Mary Jane,

    The translation of the Lauda Sion in By Flowing Waters was taken from the Roman Missal approved by the National Conference of Bishops of the United States, ©1964 by the National Catholic Welfare Conference, Inc. All rights reserved. Used with Permission.

    Blessings,
    Paul
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 857
    Mia,

    The Graduale Simplex is published by Rome; and Rome does not use the Solesmes markings, hence no dotted puncta or horizontal episemas.

    Blessings,
    Paul
  • Jeffrey MorseJeffrey Morse
    Posts: 202
    Jeffrey, official books of chant (editio typica) from the Vatican never contained the Solesmes Rhythmic markings, for example, the official book of antiphons for the (now) traditional office, the ANTIPHONALE ROMANUM never had them, this was because the Church didn't want to favor one method over another. While the Vatican lauded Solesmes for the restoration of the Gregorian melodies, I think it wisely always kept the Solesmes rhythmic theories out of the OFFICIAL books, and kept the notation pure and unencumbered by one group's theories, however wonderful it was. Of course the LU being a house publications of Solesmes could have them. Now there are no official Vatican editions of the Chant, just what Solesmes puts out, so the Solesmes markings are more common now than before the Council, though I've noticed the ictus is starting to disappear...
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Yes, that's right, but when one is used to the markings...you end up having to add them anyway. I guess you are probably right that it was right to keep them out. there's probably a point there. I know some groups who still only use the Vat edition for this very reason.

    Interesting about that translation of Lauda Sion. I didn't know that this was the official one.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Thank you so much for all the comments. Lots to learn and decide. (I think dotted puctum really helps beginners.) I know that Introit, offertory and communion are seasonal, how about Gradual and Alleuia? Do they go with readings? I might not use Graduale Simplex, but it's good to know.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Go through your Graduale Simplex and look at the dates that have actual proper texts, not just seasonal ones. I blieve Dr. Ford posted a chart of these at one point if I'm not mistaken. One that comes to mind immediately is "Visionem" for the Second Sunday of Lent. There are other texts from the GR throughout the book, although they might appear in a different place or in a different form than in the GR. These have already been selected as among the simpler chants and might be a good place to start with a beginning schola. And why not learn them according to the rhythm printed in the GS? I think it's probably easier for an inexperienced choir to sing something counting "one one one one one" than "two one two one two three one" at least to begin with. After they learn the solfege and the modes, then you could move on to nuanced rhythms using either the Graduale Triplex or the Solesmes rhythmic editions to inform your choices.
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 857
    Mia,

    The following information from my seminary website [http://www.pford.stjohnsem.edu/ford/by-flowing-waters/index.htm] might help:

    Unlike the Roman Gradual which has proper antiphons and psalms for entrance, preparation, and communion for every Sunday of the year, the Graduale Simplex has eight (and By Flowing Waters has nine) suites of antiphons and psalms for Ordinary Time which are thematic in character. The themes of the suites are:

    Ordinary Time I (BFW 221–229) — praise of the God at work in Jesus’ ministry
    Ordinary Time II (BFW 230–238) — trust and hope in God
    Ordinary Time III (BFW 239–247) — petitioning God for assistance
    Ordinary Time IV (BFW 248–258) — thanksgiving to God, especially in God’s house
    Ordinary Time V(BFW 259–268) — God’s justice
    Ordinary Time VI (BFW 269–274, as well as BFW 232–234 and 241–243) — God’s peace and loving kindness
    Ordinary Time VII (BFW 275–280, as well as BFW 250–253 and 262–264) — reverence and love for God
    Ordinary Time VIII (BFW 281–287, as well as BFW 645, 210–211, 413–414, and 123) — God is true to God’s name, “I will be with you”
    Ordinary Time IX (BFW 288–295, as well as BFW 133 and 140) — watchful joy for the return of Christ

    Ordinary Time I is especially effective on Sundays and weekdays in the time after the Christmas season and before Lent, and in the ninth and twenty-second weeks when the Matthean and Lukan versions of the beginnings of Jesus’ ministry are proclaimed in the weekday gospels. Similarly, Ordinary Time VIII is especially effective on Sundays and days when the readings underscore the ways in which God is true to God’s name, “I will be with you.” (Ordinary Time IX, collected for By Flowing Waters, has a designated use, “the Last Weeks in Ordinary Time,” weeks thirty-two through thirty-four and, by extension, any time when the lectionary readings focus on the end times.)

    For the very generous reprint policy of the Liturgical Press for assembly/congregation editions of chants from By Flowing Waters, see the reprint permission file below.

    Reviews and Praise for By Flowing Waters
    Reprint Permissions
    Lead Sheets on Selected Chants and Performance Notes
    Audio Examples
    New Indexes (Biblical and Latin Originals)
    Suggested Uses for Every Occasion
    Theological and Spiritual Reflections on the Recordings
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 993
    Dear Paul,

    I knew that the translation was the official one. But it is a minor pet peeve in my menagerie of translational annoyances.

    The more I have occasion to work with material from BFW, the more I appreciate the work that went into it. And I wish everyone would use it for Communion processionals.

    Blessings likewise,
    Mary Jane
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Paul,

    One suggestion for a later revision. The nomenclature (Ordinary Time I, II, etc) confused me greatly for a bit. Could you perhaps make it a little more clear in the naming that these sets are not for Sunday in Ordinary Time I, etc?
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    'By Flowing Waters', has long notes, which makes it easier to do phrasings. GS. don't have any markings for that , for the beginner's it's not easy. Just doing one, one, one will not make chants sound good at all. Whether it's a Solesmes method or not, it should have some markings to sing chants easily. I really don't care whether it's Solesmes of Cardine's, whatever helps me to sing chants well I will use (probably a combination of those).
    Dr. Paul, where can I find audio sample and reprint permission files that you mentioned for 'By Flowing Waters'?
    Thanks,
    Mia
  • Geoff
    Posts: 22
    Am I imagining things, or do I remember once seeing something from somewhere stating that one could use the versions of the tunes for the Graduale Simplex as found in the 1934 Antiphonale Monasticum? If I recall correctly, the tunes for the GS came from office antiphons, and the 1934 AM has better edited tunes (as well as Solesmes rhythmical markings) than the 1913 Antiphonale Romanum. I could be mixing up things in my head though...
  • henry
    Posts: 241
    I think I will use the Graduale Simplex because our parish is bilingual (English/Spanish) so that rules out By Flowing Waters, much as I like it, and the GR is too difficult for us right now. Is there an accompaniment for the Simplex?
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 857
    Geoff,

    You're not imagining things. If you check the "Index of Latin Originals to the Graduale Simplex" [http://www.pford.stjohnsem.edu/ford/by-flowing-waters/docs/indexes/Index of Latin Antiphons.pdf], you'll see that I have linked everything I was able to find in the 1934 Antiphonale Monasticum. I have YET to do that for the new three volume Antiphonale Monasticum from Solesmes, but I will.

    Blessings,
    Paul
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 857
    Mia asked
    where can I find audio sample and reprint permission files that you mentioned for 'By Flowing Waters'


    The reprint permission files are at [http://www.pford.stjohnsem.edu/ford/by-flowing-waters/docs/reprint/piece by piece copyright.doc]

    The audio samples are at [http://www.pford.stjohnsem.edu/ford/by-flowing-waters/audio/index.htm] as well as on the three CDs the The Liturgical Press asked J. Michael Thompson and the Schola of Saint Peter the Apostle to record.

    Blessings,
    Paul
  • Geoff
    Posts: 22
    Paul,

    Thanks for the info! One quick question: what exactly is/was the 1968 ICEL "The Simple Gradual". Is it merely a translation of the texts of the Graduale Simplex, or did it include the tunes as well?

    Thanks & God bless,
    Geoff
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 857
    Mia also observes:
    Whether it's a Solesmes method or not, it should have some markings to sing chants easily. I really don't care whether it's Solesmes of Cardine's, whatever helps me to sing chants well I will use (probably a combination of those).
    In general I followed the old Solesmes method in By Flowing Waters simply because that method is the easiest for scholas and assemblies to sing. When I work with my schola at the seminary, we do start with the text and then drop the pitches onto the text (as Alice Parker would say).

    Blessings,
    Paul
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Thank you for all the info. It really helps for the biginning schola.
    Mia
  • Ioannes Andreades
    Posts: 310
    I've used the communion psalm (34) on pp. 460-461 of GS with the antiphon, "Gustate quam suavis Dominus," and invited the congregation to join on the antiphon. Some did, and I think it was on the same order of magnitude as people who sing at all during a communion hymn. It has the advantage of being one of the earliest known psalms used for communion (4th century), is easy for the congregation to join in on, can be used every Sunday until a chant choir gains a little more maturity, and is in Latin. Drawbacks are that the the verses go very quickly for a choir that cannot be broken up into two groups and that some of the Latin words are a little tricky to say (e.g. circuitu).
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