What pray tell, determines if a song is uplifting?
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    Some of the feedback we're getting on the new hymnal selection includes the sentence...

    "More uplifting songs."

    How on earth are we supposed to do that? Whether or not a piece of music uplifts or not is completely subjective. I personally find Chant to be very uplifting.

    I'm not feeling very charitable towards the previous two generations or so at the moment. The Mass isn't to entertain or even to uplift...at least not in that sense.

    ANY suggestions about how to charitably address this issue without caving into the pure emotionalism of it would be greatly appreciated.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    How about:

    "Oh, I'm sure once the congregation learns the hymn well and sings it with gusto, like they do at the Episcopal churches, we will find the hymns very uplifting! Did you watch the royal wedding? Wow!"
    Thanked by 1IanW
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    Emotionalism about music at Mass long preceded Vatican II; the previous two generations inherited it. It was not parthenogenesis.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Before I whack you with my cane, you whippersnapper, not everyone in the previous generations bought into the garbage hymnody present in many churches since Vatican II. I have never understood the "uplifting" thing either. Tornados are uplifting, hurricanes possibly so. With hymns, I understand stately, reverent, and majestic but not uplifting.
    Thanked by 7noel jones, aago Wendi Mairi Ally Ben francis Chris Allen
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    How about more "uplifting" readings, or opening prayers, or prayers after Communion, or Responsorial Psalm texts?

    Oh… they can't be replaced?
    Thanked by 6Ragueneau noel jones, aago Mairi Ally Ben JacobFlaherty
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,086
    That's easy: if it sounds like elevator music, it's uplifting.
    Thanked by 5Kathy Mairi IanW francis Chris Allen
  • Musicteacher56
    Posts: 621
    It's all in the dynamics, of course. Today's response "God Mounts His Throne to Shouts of Joy....a Blare of Trumpets to the Lord".......I rehearsed and rehearsed the dynamic with my cantors and still had lackluster performances. And Jeff.....only if the elevator button is pushed to "down"!!!!
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Ted Talk...this is a link worth watching to the end

    It's when the head goes left and right on 1 and 2. That's the furthest they understand. Catholic congregations exposure to music takes them to the level 8 year olds reach in their second year of piano....

    If the head goes right and left, now that's uplifting music.

    But groups of 2 and 3? Stravinsky?

    And as long as I am rolling along here...all those who hate Solesmes markings...explain then why Chironomy is solely groups of two and three?

    And, if you think this is PRAY TELL, you are seriously lost!
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    bVII makes it uplifting. That's all.
    Thanked by 2chonak DougS
  • The Thurifer
    Posts: 12
    It is uplifting when it does not require the uplifting of an OCP hymnal.
    Thanked by 6CHGiffen Wendi ScottKChicago Ben Gavin Chris Allen
  • Claire H
    Posts: 370
    Frogman, I love, love, love that Zander video -- glad you brought it up. :)

    Wendi, believe me, I've puzzled over this long and hard. Some thoughts shared here...
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Gavin,
    Check out the ison'd SALVE REGINA Jeffrey posted at Cafe. It bolsters your precise point! Nice catch.
  • lmassery
    Posts: 422
    Wendi - I can't tell you how many times I get the request for more "uplifting songs." The pastor even held 5 or 6 "listening sessions" over the past year which resulted in the liturgy sub-group setting as their main goal for the next 2 years, (mind you, this is the culmination of a year's worth of brainstorming and discussion,) "to include a variety of prayerful and uplifting songs."

    I know how you feel. I am learning that many people at my parish are referring to fast tempos. Play even the traditional hymns fast and zippy and that will satisfy many methinks
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Charles, I actually think that's one benefit of the ison, in that (in certain modes) the whole step subtonic - tonic cadence is reminiscent of some of the more cheesy music by modern composers.

    Subtonic - tonic cadence and semiquaver syncopation. Use it, get rich quick. That's what "uplifting" means.

    To seriously answer the original question, no one, ESPECIALLY not the people who use it, knows what the word "uplifting" means.

    A similar meaningless cliche came up while I was out to dinner with the AGO chapter last night. A prominent member told how in his younger days, the powers that be told him "you need to remember your music is worship, not performance," and he replied "Sure! How many wrong notes would you like me to play?"

    It occurred to me that no one who uses this false "worship vs performance" distinction has any idea what they mean by it. Sure, they can make some vague spiritual reference about "who's it really for", but they can't tell you what exactly you should do differently with the music. Is worship a tempo? A style of playing? Which are the "worship stops" and which the "performance stops"?
    Thanked by 1JonDeuling
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    Gavin

    I think you significantly overstate the meaninglessness of those buzzwords. Yes, they are cliched short-hand, but they are not empty words so much as representations of a larger sensibility. For example, I suspect you have an internal monitor to self-manage the sense for when your music serves the liturgy more than the liturgy serves as an occasion for your music, and you probably have a variety of criteria (perhaps many subconscious) to evaluate that; that's what the worship vs performance meme comes in.

    I would say that many people in the pews may strongly differ with their organists over many things, such as what is ponderous versus stately versus flowing, what is overwhelming them versus leading versus supporting them, what confuses them versus what helps them, et cet. The fact that they are not educated in sacred music doesn't mean that their opinions are utterly ignorable; again, they are, for good and ill, the ones that make a career in sacred music possible at their parish. Musicians, like pastors, come and go; the flock is what remains. And Catholic governance structures virtually ensure a war of passive aggressive conflict styles, with musicians often feeling put upon, underappreciated, exploited, and resentful. (And, of course, so can a lot of the flock.)
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