The Collegeville Hymnal vs. Vatican II Hymnal
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,607
    Comparing JMO's Vatican II Hymnal to any of the offerings of the pulp publishers is really unfair! They are reaching a market that like the one in the grocery store, not with magazines and books on a shelf section next to frozen foods, but rather at the checkout counter. Gossip mags, read 'em and throw them away.

    And that's what throwaway missals are....something not worth keeping, hardly something that people will treasure and refer to for years to come.

    Why not compare the Vatican II Hymnal to The Collegeville Hymnal?

    Hymns, Gregorian Chants, Responsorial Psalms. Carefully chosen. Why's it not better known?
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,697
    I would think that more people not attached to CMAA or on the Catholic-Internetosphere would probably know more about the Collegeville Hymnal than the Vatican II hymnal.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,697
    Really I think the amount that general mainstream music people know about various hymnals is based on the company producing them. GIA and OCP's offerings are out in front because they have the biggest advertising budgets. WLP follows. Somewhere behind them there's a plethora of other hymnals from LitPress and the smaller publishers.. Then Corpus Christi Watershed. It might seem like people know about the Vatican II Hymnal (because we all do), but go up to the average choir director at St. AverageParish and they will stare at you blankly and say "Vatican II has it's own hymnal...?"
  • ContraBombarde
    Posts: 471
    I can't agree with you more matthewj, and because of that, nothing will change, unless those of us who are familiar with materials like Vatican II, and Collegeville, change the tide. If we are constantly using those other materials, and never try to give these other hymnals a chance, nothing will change. Music will continue to be what it is. One thing I think we all worry about is, having a hymnal jam packed with lots and lots of hymns, but in reality, the people need time to learn the few that are there. We as musicians can learn very quickly new hymns/song/propers each week, but if we don't continue to allow our congregations to be exposed to music more often, they will not be able to learn them. This is one of the chief complaints that I have received over the years from congregants. We love the music, but we don't sing because we need time to learn the hymns first.

    They are right. I did an experiment with this at my former parish. I took 10 Eucharistic hymns, and taught them all 10, and just rotated them. Communion line was full of people singing on their way to communion, with no hymnal in hand. I could have easily substituted this with communion propers, but at that parish, they insisted on hymns.

    When they finally learned the 10 hymns well enough, I would add one, at a time, until it was learned properly.

    I guess every parish is unique in that sense, but it seems to be what has worked for me.

    On a side note to that, while not my choice of hymns/songs, but have you ever noticed at some parishes, if you don't even annouce the song, Here I am Lord, or the other Jesuit tunes, how the people just belt those songs out? They were used so much that the people learned them, and sing them, allbeit, not the greatest of selections, but they sing them.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,697
    I also think that a CMAA and/or Corpus Christi Watershed table at an NPM convention would expose more people to things like this... Nothing could possibly expose more main-stream church musicians to the Vatican II hymnal or Simple English Propers than having Jeffrey Ostrowski standing around a booth 24/7 at the expo center (Ostrowski doesn't need sleep - we can arrange someone to bring him food and water at appropriate times).

    I bet if someone put up a "Send Ostrowski to NPM and get him a booth" donation button on Chant Cafe, it'd easily get the money needed. Just picture the YouTube videos of Ostrowski passionately explaining good hymnody and chant to confused folk choir directors who stumbled upon his booth looking for free stuff.
    Thanked by 11Gavin Charles in CenCA Ben Kathy ContraBombarde irishtenor Paul F. Ford Wendi leon.griesbach CHGiffen Chris Allen
  • ContraBombarde
    Posts: 471
    LOL! Now that was well said!
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,205
    Frogman,

    I must respectfully disagree with your assessment of the Collegeville Hymnal.

    From my own experience having used it for the last 3 years, I cannot wait until we get rid of it. When it comes to hymns, either the tune is right and the text has been subjected to wanton butchery (such as "Praise Christ Jesus, King of Heaven") or they've made wholesale additions of verses not found in the original hymn text that are questionable if not heretical (such as the notorious 3rd verse of "See Us, Lord, About Your Altar" which doesn't appear in the original Greally text), or they've set unaltered texts to entirely new tunes that are of mediocre quality that the people don't recognize or prefer.

    There are chants, I'll grant that, but the accompaniments are often awkward or poorly-crafted, such as the horrifyingly bad setting of "O Come, O Come, Emmanuel." Or they've taken liberties with the translation, such as with "Humbly We Adore You," which renders the last two phrases of the chant as a refrain, or have provided alternative texts of weak and questionable theology, such as "Let the Hungry Come to Me" set by Sr. Delores Dufner, OSB, to the "Adoro te" tune.

    The responsorial psalmody is incomplete at best, drawn from a variety of styles including rather "sing-songy" or campy settings such as Haugen/Haas' setting of Ps. 98, "All the ends of the earth". Only the common seasonal psalms are provided, thus making it a useless resource for any parish trying to sing the appointed lectionary texts on a weekly basis. Plus, the pew edition provides both words and music for the psalm verses. This is a waste of space considering that the verses are properly sung by cantor only. Also, it would appear that some of the psalm refrains and verses do not match the approved translations for use at Mass, such as the previously-mentioned "All the ends of the earth".

    And now, of course, all of the settings of the Ordinary are obsolete with the promulgation of the corrected translation of the Missal.

    The accompaniment edition is in two volumes, and is cheaply bound. The pages become detached from the binding after several uses.

    From what I have read and heard of the VII hymnal, it is a superior resource, and is the one I'm leaning toward when it comes time to replace the Collegeville.
  • WGS
    Posts: 299
    When you think of how "they've taken liberties with the translation, such as with 'Humbly We Adore You,'", keep in mind that "Adoro" is "I adore" rather than "We adore".
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,607
    David Andrew,

    Well said. Now compare Collegeville to the pulp missalettes...I'd be very interested in your thoughts.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    "Now compare Collegeville to the pulp missalettes"

    If these things are deal-breakers for David, why is there any need to make a comparison between a hymnal he sees as inappropriate for use and another hymnal that's inappropriate for use?

    And, for that matter, what does the Collegeville have that Vatican II does not? Unless one can name some reason one would buy it in place of the Vatican II Hymnal, there's no need to compare.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,205
    Frogman,

    Grab a stiff drink, and we'll begin . . .
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    Gavin...it's an academic exercise. Which is very helpful to people like myself.

    I've been following all of the hymnal comparison threads avidly. After researching all of the options our hymnal committee is looking at, I have come to the conclusion that the Vatican II hymnal is way out in front as being the hymnal that will best serve the needs of our parish. However, mine is not the only voice on the committee and there are a number of members who consider "Ashes" to be a premier hymn.

    That being the case, the more comparisons I read, the more nuggets of wisdom I collect to help persuade the other members of the committee that the Vatican II hymnal really IS the best hymnal for our parish to invest in. Sometimes it's all about how you present your case, and reading all of these threads helps me to articulate my position more clearly.

    So...let the comparing continue. :)
    Thanked by 1ContraBombarde
  • ContraBombarde
    Posts: 471
    Thank you Wendi!

    I am in the same situation, and just because I am DM, doesn't mean that I have the final decision in a hymnal selection. I have several others that will chime in, and could very well override my suggestion as well. I have sided with Vatican II,,,, but of course as you suggested, their are those that think Ashes, Canticle of the Sun, etc.... are a necessary. Having more ammunition from here, is definitely helpful in presenting a better case.

    I am in a situation where they require the readings in the hymnal. I have canceled OCP's renewal this year (making me very happy), but have to have a the proper resource in the pews to offset the hymnal/missalette dilemma. Our committee is down to Vatican II, Worship IV, and Gather III. If I have to settle, I would certainly rather Worship IV, than Gather III, but absolutely prefer Vatican II.

    The fact that we have a projection system in the church, allows me to supplement hymns that might not be in the Vatican II. So I am not worried in that sense. There is plenty in Vatican II, and people need a chance to learn those hymns. No one uses 800-900 hymns or (songs) out any hymnal.
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    I'm not even DM and ours has to be very careful not to express an opinion on which hymnal we should go with. (Which he has not-his statement is that he will work with whatever is decided on).

    Politics is awful, church politics is worse, Small town church politics is THE worst.

    Since I have no official position, I can be as vocal as I want to be, without having to worry about the minefield so much.
    Thanked by 2ContraBombarde CHGiffen
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Thank you so much for these kind comments !!!
    Thanked by 2Wendi ContraBombarde
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Remember the promo for Colloquium XX, "Stay churchy, my friend," with Bill Mahrt as the most interesting (chant) man in the world?
    My follow up to that is the most interesting man declaring: "I don't always use a hymnal for singing at Mass, but when I do, it's Vatican II."
    In the many directions that local parish musicians may choose to take when deciding upon a liturgical repertoire, comprehensive or otherwise, there still remains a number of "delivery systems" or forms. I discussed that at length in a Cafe article here:
    http://www.chantcafe.com/2012/04/some-things-i-might-have-offered-june.html
    The one thing that clearly must be understood when choosing the investment in a hardbound hymnal is that some sort of statement iS BEING MADE by the pastoral staff in charge of that. And one must be aptly prepared to defend that statement with both authority and charity when the pushback is voiced, which WILL happen.
    Thanked by 1ContraBombarde
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    Precisely.

    Thank you for posting the link to your article. There are quite a few points in it that I will unashamedly borrow to use during the hymnal committee meeting.

    I'm very sorry you won't be at the colloquium, I would like to meet you in person.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    You're too kind!
    Thanked by 1Wendi
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