Balancing a "just working wage" with serving the Church?
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    Has anyone run into the problem of not wanting to be "taken advantage" of by the church you are working for, and not wanting to set a precedent for how much you should be paid, but also wanting to serve the Church in your free time?

    How do you volunteer at a church (if you want to, and you see they could really use your help, and you have the time, but they don't have the money to pay you), especially when it's musically related, and you already work as a musician there?

    You don't want them to think that they pay you so little b/c you are worth so little and don't do much work.
    You don't want other musicians to be negatively affected by your salary and the amount of work you do. (For example, either you leave, or the priest goes to a different church- he could say to the next person, "well, my last guy did all this work for $x, so why can't you?" Or tell his priest buddies how much he pays you so they start to think they could get away with paying their musicians that little?)

    I have more details to this "theoretical" situation, but I'm curious to hear some initial thoughts. :-)
    WWYD?
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,501
    A lot depends on the size of the parish, imho. If it's a two-Mass-per-weekend parish, in a little church, not always full, then future musicians aren't likely to ever be paid either.

    In any case I don't think any Catholic should ever avoid volunteering for reasons of solidarity with other, paid professionals. St. Paul said that sharing the Gospel for free was itself a kind of payment for him. Even though he acknowledged that he was entitled to be paid, he gloried in volunteering. So I think it's a fine thing to be able to do.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    Which would be preferable-
    to try and negotiate a tiny stipend (that the church can barely afford, and that won't make a whole lot of difference in your own bank account) for doing an extra service (say, starting a new choir,) or to just tell them you're going to volunteer your time?
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    Maybe I'm alone in thinking this, or maybe this isn't even healthy/holy thinking, but I actually have always felt very funny about volunteering my services for something that I've been professionally trained in. For some odd reason I feel much more comfortable just volunteering at any old thing (eg, helping at a fish fry or whatever.) Like, I've spent ALL this money and time to be trained in this, so shouldn't I always be paid to do it?
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen R J Stove
  • redsox1
    Posts: 217
    As professionals working for the Church, we give 110%, we go the extra mile. We are team players, we respect the time of those who minister in the choir or as cantors, etc., we are committed to excellence, yet we are charitable in our leadership. This is how we honor or call to ministry. We balance this with being there for our families.

    We don't trivialize our experience or training and we certainly do not apologize for being paid a just wage. The Church pays plenty for other professional services. These things all relate to the ministry in way or the other. Why should it be different for pastoral musicians?
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    redsox makes me think of another point-
    I suppose this could be asked of any professional. What if I were a trained accountant, and my church advertised for a volunteer to help them with their finances? I suppose that person would just have to decide if they were willing. What if there was no advertisement, but the accountant saw a need and thought he could help.... should he just offer to do it, or should he ask to get paid what he is worth?
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    If you want to "serve the church," go out and evangelize in third-world countries.

    If you want to be taken advantage of, then volunteer your musical expertise at a local parish.

    Do they pay a secretary, and/or additional office staff?
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    As far as future musicians being held up to your example...

    My friend Jen (whom you've met) took a position at a church almost a year ago. After playing her first service, an old lady came up to her: "I'm ready to go whenever you are!" Turns out the prior organist always gave her a ride home. So Jen should too.
    Thanked by 3Kathy marajoy Ally
  • Paul_D
    Posts: 133
    I wish all parishes would follow the standard practice expected of a charity: in the case of a significant donation of professional time, you invoice them for your services, they present you with a check, and you in turn write them back a check, and you get a charitable donation receipt. Why not? It is standard in every charity; it is completely accountable and transparent; it shows the true value of your service and the extent to which the church values your professional expertise. It is good for the church to know the value of what it is getting. Auditors love this stuff and the church looks good for managing its charitable receipts responsibly. This is nothing but a win-win arrangement, and I think we just avoid it because it somehow taints things when we talk about money. Let’s get over it! This is not for profit or gain, but for a healthy accountability.

    The only caveat is that you have to declare this as income for tax purposes, but the added taxation may be offset with the deduction for charitable donations, depending on your income (and perhaps the expertise of your accountant.) If in doubt, it is easily compensated: you invoice the church for, say $100 per Mass, and donate back something like $90. It’s still volunteering because you are breaking even.

    If your pastor is unsure, encourage him to seek advice from the chancery. They are usually glad to have an opportunity to talk to a pastor about best business practices. Hope that doesn’t make him nervous!
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,501
    I think professionals can and do offer professional-level services for free at their parish. Accountants serve on finance councils, teachers teach ccd, etc.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    Paul-
    that is a very interesting idea. I have actually never heard of that (or at least spelled out so much.)
    I'm a little confused though- how does the church exactly benefit from it? They're still losing $10 (in your example) for every service you do, and they have to deal with the extra paperwork. Wouldn't they prefer you just volunteer completely?
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,307
    I am also confused by this. If, for example, you make $10,000 a year in your paid work and you "volunteer" for another $5,000 of work under Paul's scenario, wouldn't it work out like this:

    job 1 = $10,000
    job 2 = $5,000
    SUB - TOTAL = $15,000

    Donations = $5,000 (deduction)

    GRAND TOTAL = $10,000 (15,000 - 5,000)

    That looks to me like you're exactly where you started. If I'm somehow mistaken, perhaps someone could clarify? I just don't see the benefit to either party under this scenario.
  • formeruser
    Posts: 22
    There are many different levels of both professionals and volunteers. The bottom line, however, is accountability. A volunteer ALWAYS has the option of saying "sorry but I cannot be there today". A paid professional does not have that luxury. We are expected to be there and perform our job at a high level of competency no matter what. Having said that, no church can survive without the many selfless volunteers who serve in many capacities in a parish. But, in my experience and imho, to run smoothly and efficiently, those volunteers require direction and supervision - whether from clergy or paid professional staff.
  • Paul_D
    Posts: 133
    Marajoy – personally, I would accept a check for $100 and make a $100 donation. So over a year, I might be getting about $5,000 extra “income” from the church, and be making a $5,000 cumulative donation. The extra income tax I would be paying on the $5,000 would – in my case – be compensated when I claim a corresponding tax credit for the $5,000 donation.

    Not everyone is in the same financial situation or taxation circumstances, however, so I gave the example of a $90 donation as a way to illustrate a legitimate method of ensuring that things balance out for you in the end, if that suits your circumstances better. You would be donating back your fee less costs, i.e. the extra tax you might have to pay. Yes, in this scenario, the church is out $10 per Mass, but they are still saving 90% of the actual cost! Bargoon! But this $90 example is only for those who would be at a disadvantage from a tax perspective.

    As for extra paperwork --- most parishes use accounting software, and would include this donation in your annual tax receipt along with weekly and other donations made to the parish. No extra work in this, really. Parishes should also have no trouble with monthly invoices and payments, since the secretary or accountant is normally doing batches of these anyway, or the lights go out, etc. You can wait for the charitable donation receipt at the end of the year, but I would recommend a monthly invoice and payment, just to keep on top of things, rather than trying to settle it all at the end of the year.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,307
    Paul D-

    Why would that benefit me? Under what circumstances would accepting $5,000 in payment and then donating that same $5,000 back not simply even out, leaving me with the same amount of taxable income as I had before?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,501
    Tax deduction.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,307
    re: "Tax deduction."

    What is the benefit to me? A tax deduction that leaves me paying taxes on $10,000 doesn't help me. That's the same amount of taxes I was paying before, just on the money I was earning previously. It's not saving me any money.

    Could someone clarify this? If I didn't have to declare the $5,000 as income before I deducted it, I could see it helping. Otherwise, it's a wash.
  • Paul_D
    Posts: 133
    If you use a program to do your taxes, you might be surprised at how much you would benefit by earning $5,000 more and donating it. Some people appreciate the tax relief made possible in this way. But as I said, it will be different in different income brackets and in different states and countries.

    You might not come out ahead financially. But that wasn’t the idea of this post.

    If you re-read Marajoy’s initial post, I think you will see the issues this solution is intended to address.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,307
    Paul D-

    Thanks for getting us back to the point of the post. On that count, you're right on!

    Didn't mean to hijack the thread--back to your lives, citizens! :)
  • StDenisStDenis
    Posts: 15
    But before I put in my two cents, two things...First, a disclaimer: I am not providing professional legal advice. Second, this only applies to Federal income tax.

    Irishtenor is right insofar as a deduction on income that is only earned to produce that deduction puts you in no better a tax position then you were previously. If anything, it only benefits the parish since they are getting musical services at a cheaper rate than they otherwise would. Other than that, it either doesn't help the taxpayer or makes him worse off. Here's why:

    1) You can claim a deduction for charitable contributions, but only if you itemize. If you take the standard deduction and don't itemize, you can't deduct your aggregate charitable contributions no matter how many you have made. Period. So, unless you itemize, this sort of arrangement makes you worse off. (Unless you get paid "under the table" with cash out of the collection plate. Legally and morally, this is still income and should be reported. And I would never encourage someone to try and get away with it, but I recognize that it probably happens in a lot of parishes rather frequently.)

    2) If you do itemize, this gives you no real benefit, as I previously mentioned. You're only deducting income that you wouldn't have been taxed on to begin with. If you make enough money, though, you'll end up worse off. Most church musicians are independent contractors. As sole proprietors, they have to pay self-employment tax above and beyond regular income tax. Deductions may lower their taxable income, but they still need to pay S-E tax. And you can only get a credit for half of your S-E tax. It may not be much, but it is making you "worse off."

    3) Adding more money to your gross taxable income has the potential to raise you into another tax bracket, depending on what other sort of income you already have. If the extra $5k-10k you will be making a year, for example, bumps you up into a higher bracket, you could end up paying more taxes regardless of the charitable deduction.

    4) Finally, if you happen to get audited and the auditor somehow finds out that you've purposefully designed your taxes this way--even though there is no tax benefit--they could (although it is unlikely) deny the charitable deduction, leaving you to pay the tax on the extra income. To be a charitable donation there has to be sufficient donative intent. Taking on a job, turning the money right back around, and taking the deduction smells fishy.

    All that being said, a parish should fairly compensate its workers. That's part of Catholic Social Teaching. It is one thing if it can't afford to do so, but if it has the means, it should. Most priests don't really appreciate the effort, time, and preparation that goes into providing quality music for the Mass. Lay committees understand this even less. But everyone understands money, and will try to part with as little of it as they can!
  • WGS
    Posts: 299
    A Methodist friend volunteered as a temporary replacement for a professional choir director who no longer was available. This replacement choir director insisted that he be paid although he regularly donated his salary back to his "church". The volunteer director wanted to assure that the "church" would continue to provide in the budget for a choir director. It would have been so easy for the "church" to be misled into thinking it could get along quite well with just a volunteer.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,183
    FICA (Social Security) and Medicare taxes also have an effect on the plan of donating one's pay to the parish. If a parish hires a musician as an employee, the parish pays the payroll tax, i.e., the employer's share of FICA (Social Security) and Medicare taxes, on the payroll amount. The rate is usually 7.65%, though a temporary reduction is in effect this year. So the parish has to budget for that cost and for any benefits provided to part-time employees. It still seems a modest cost for the benefit of getting the employee's services.

    The employee would have to pay an equal amount for FICA + Medicare, deducted from the paycheck; this tax is not offset by a charitable contribution deduction.
  • Paul_D
    Posts: 133
    So much proof here that government exists mainly to complicate everything!
    In light of the above, and after much googling IRS stuff, I now recommend the simpler solution: invoice the church for $100, donate back $90 or less, and don’t ask for the tax receipt. Simple. And you’re not an employee, just a service provider, so no payroll tax, etc. etc.

    Forget I even mentioned the tax receipt. Though I might on principle ask them to issue one, but not include it in my tax return. I might at least ask the pastor to look into it.

    Above all, don’t feel guilty about keeping the change! Adjust according to how much you like the homily that day.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    Paul... but don't you still have to pay taxes on things like that even if it's not "payroll?" If you make over a certain amount, then you have to fill out the self-employed tax form. (or whatever.)
    So that would TOTALLY defeat the point... you're basically giving the government money to do what you could have volunteered for!
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,204
    When I arrived at my current parish, the EF Mass (Low Mass with vernacular hymns, selected and led by one of several volunteers) was being offered once a month on Saturday morning. The deacon who was the point person for it asked if I would like to come in and play the hymns. Although it wasn't a part of my regular duties, I decided to do it because 1) I wanted to become more involved and exposed to the EF and 2) I felt that the quality could be improved if I was selecting and playing the hymns.

    After several months, I decided that "Low Mass with hymns" was clunky, awkward and not really consistent with a beneficial advancement of the EF experience, and so when I found out that both of the priests who were offering it at the time were fully trained in Missa cantata, I decided to offer my services as a cantor to chant the Propers. Again, this is not a part of the duties I was hired for, but I felt it was important to do it.

    The result is that I have learned a great deal about chant and the EF, and the quality of the experience for all involved has, I hope, been heightened and improved. Had I taken the attitude that it was "volunteering" for something I wasn't being paid for, nobody would have gained anything.

    I have also formed a men's schola, training them in Gregorian chant and its application in both the EF and OF. Again, not a part of my enumerated responsibilities, but certainly an important part of my professional development and the advancement of the cause for the restoration of chant and ultimately the reclamation of the Church's unique musical and liturgical identity.

    I have no doubt that eventually the Pastor will increase my salary for all the work and improvements I've brought to the parish. In the meantime, I'm not of a mind to "nickel and dime" the parish to death for every little "extra" thing I do in my capacity as Music Director.

    I'm not sure if this answers your question, Marajoy, but that's my 2 cents.
  • StDenisStDenis
    Posts: 15
    The law is very clear: the government can tax anything that constitutes income. The only things that prevents it from taxing everything are specific prohibitions in the Tax Code, the case law, and mere administrative costs.

    "Income" for tax purposes includes any sort of compensation, even if you don't have a tax receipt, etc. While an employer/contractee does not have to report to the IRS for monthly compensation below $600 made to any single employee/contractor, that doesn't mean that money is excludable from taxable income. It only means that the individual receiving the payments is responsible for keeping tracking on his own and reporting it accordingly.

    To illustrate: most church musicians are not employees. They don't get a W-2. Instead, if they get paid over $600/month, they get a Form 1099. Otherwise, they keep track on their own. Either way, they have to report all the money received in consideration for their services. They pay income tax upon it, as well as self-employment tax.

    If you get paid only $100/month and don't report anything, you'll probably get away with it. But I wouldn't take the chance; eventually, you'll get caught. And given the direction this country is going, I wouldn't even try to evade taxes on a measly $1,200. It won't be worth it, notwithstanding the immorality of most taxation. It is better simply to volunteer your musical services (the value of which is not deductible as a charitable contribution BTW) and enjoy the happy glow of self-satisfaction and spiritual contentment in return!
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    Marajoy, why do you think it's weird to volunteer for something you've been trained to do? Isn't that the ultimate volunteer opportunity?
  • Paul_D
    Posts: 133
    Please note that I never even so much as suggested that you would not declare said income under discussion on your tax return.

    I’m going to stick by my guns and say that, under some circumstances, it is better not to be treated as any other volunteer, if it reinforces the notion in some places that musicians really should volunteer and should not expect to be paid, even if the parish can afford it and wants a decent music program. Funny how some parishes find money for everything but the music program. We need to fix this situation.

    So I would say, Father, you can’t afford my services right now, but until the parish sorts out its finances, I will donate what you pay me (less expenses) back to the parish. I’ll help you out in this way until you hire a permanent organist (music director, etc.), or either one of us find it just isn’t working for whatever reason. If the chancery OK’s that you give me a tax receipt, fine, but my offer isn’t contingent upon that.

    I’m not suggesting that no one ever volunteer their musical services. Volunteering is certainly the ideal thing to do, in some times and places. But standing up for principles at no inconvenience to the church is not such a bad thing, if it helps promote respect for the vocation of the church musician. It’s different for a secretary or a nurse or a landscaper to do volunteer service for the church --- they are normally paid and the church doesn’t expect to get their services for free all the time. But some pastors still think musicians should work for free, even if that’s how they would normally make a living --- that’s the problem.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    Paul-
    I agree with your idea, except that I'm all about giving the government the LEAST amount of money possible. ha. Perhaps instead of trying to figure out taxes/donations, one would just have a heart-to-heart with the pastor, "listen, here's what I'm worth, but I'll do this for free..."

    Doug-
    Great question. I'm not exactly sure why it makes me uncomfortable, but I think it has something to do with- I feel like since I've spent money learning how to do something, then the people who are able to enjoy the results of that should therefore pay me some amount of money reap the benefits.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,501
    Of course these things are entirely at-will. The pastor can hire you if he thinks it's right, and you can do the work if you think it's right. But he can't make you volunteer, and you can't make him pay.
    Thanked by 1marajoy
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    Mara, it seems like you are trying to establish clear limits between what is part of your job and what's volunteer work, and you fear that doing extra things will turn into a job expectation, either for you or for the next person, without an appropriate increase in compensation. This is a common scenario in any field and it's only tangentially related to volunteerism; it has more to do with your ability to say, "No," either to others or, in your case, to yourself.

    Job considerations aside, you simply have to decide if volunteering in this particular situation is the right way to use your talents. Forget the money, especially if it's not there anyway. What you paid to acquire a skill is immaterial. Further, if you are volunteering, how is anyone taking advantage of you? As soon as you're uncomfortable with it, you can always stop doing it.

    I would be much more sympathetic to the "I must be paid" attitude in a scenario where someone you know asks you to play/sing in his or her wedding for free (simply to avoid having to pay someone else). This person, in my opinion, is trying to take advantage of you and your friendship. Kind of like when "Will you help me move my couch?" turns into moving the entire house.
  • It's very difficult to differentiate between that which is considered "part of the job" and that which is "volunteer". My opinion is that we work in ministry and should look at it all as service to the church, whether or not we are being paid a "just wage". I am a "part-time" DM. I put that in quotation marks because any DM knows it is NEVER a part-time job. But, I wouldn't not do it because the church considers in on their books as part-time. Ministry is ministry. I also don't feel my expensive education is going to waste because I'm not making the kind of money another professional in another area may be making. It's my opinion, that God gives us the talent and expects us to use it in His service. If we become too mercenary, than we shouldn't be in ministry.

    Now, please don't blast me with opposing views. This is all just opinion. God bless.
  • Holy Moly! You mean some of you guys actually get.... PAID?
    ... I think I'm living in the wrong country.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,307
    Purple Squirrel,
    You are funny! Speaking for myself, I sincerely appreciate the number of times you have made me laugh in your short time here :)
  • What I am more confused about all this tax talk, and being a "self employed or vendor" is this; according to the IRS guidelines of what constitutes employment, which by the way, the AGO had posted on their site, some time ago, really means that what a lot of us are being paid as vendors or self employed, really is employment. You have set times you have to show up, most of us can't just dress in beach shorts (not that any of us would do such as thing), we are being supervised by either a pastor, business administrator, or finance committee, we are governed by the use of an order of service of mass, with instructions as to following through on our work. Isn't all of this supposed to constitute employment, not just as an independant contractor or vendor???
    Thanked by 1PurpleSquirrel
  • StDenisStDenis
    Posts: 15
    The tax treatment of W-2 employees and self-employed individuals is entirely different. The tax benefits of being an employee are far superior to treatment as an independent contractor. Whether a parish has correctly classified the status of its compensated workers and is handling their compensation appropriately is another matter. If someone is being paid as a sole proprietor, and receiving tax treatment as a self-employed individual, but he actual performs the services of an "employee," then the parish can get into trouble.

    The factors posted at AGO are not dispositive. If you work at a big parish and provide the music for all the liturgies, you are likely a salary worker. If you work at a small parish, or only provide music casually for a mass every once in a while then you're likely a contractor. It will vary, of course, from case to case. The important this is that you recognize what your status is and the respective tax consequences.

    I hope that this helps with your question, MichaelM.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,183
    I suppose practices vary from place to place. In my diocese, it seems that musicians working on a routine basis (e.g., every Sunday) are treated as employees. After all, they don't meet the criteria for independent contractors: e.g., they don't set their own schedules. But your experience elsewhere may vary.

    Also, Paul's suggestion may need some refinement. Maybe one should accept the $100, but only make the charitable donation after you file your taxes for the year, so that you at least don't end up losing money on the process.
  • R J StoveR J Stove
    Posts: 302
    Ryand asks: "Do they pay a secretary, and/or additional office staff?"

    Good point. My attitude is, when the parish secretary works for free, then, and then alone, I shall play the organ for free.
  • Our parish secretary is a volunteer.
    Ergo...
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I think JPII very clearly put this whole "volunteer" business to rest a few decades ago:


    Laborem Exercens (1981): "Just remuneration for the work of an adult who is responsible for a family means remuneration which will suffice for establishing and properly maintaining a family and for providing security for its future. Such remuneration can be given either through what is called a family wage-that is, a single salary given to the head of the family for his work, sufficient for the needs of the family without the other spouse having to take up gainful employment outside the home"

    (thanks to chonak, who cited this a few months ago)


    Balance THAT with "serving the church."
    Thanked by 1PurpleSquirrel
  • With all due respect, I cannot justify JPII's comments on family economics as comparison to "serving the church". The family breadwinner is never a volunteer because there has to be some source of income in order to maintain financial stability in the home. On the other hand, working for the church can easily be on a volunteer basis if it is not the main source of family income. I know several DM's who work outside the church in order to support their families, or musicians who work on a "per mass" basis and receive nothing more than a limited stipend. It does not diminish their service. I know of no DM in this area who considers their church position as the primary source of income for their family and many musicians and cantors do donate their time.

    I guess when all is said and done, it depends on the region of the country we are talking about. Huge churches would require educated, experienced directors and musicians, whereas, smaller churches would not.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,307
    Why would smaller churches not require the same quality of music and liturgy that huge churches do?
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen formeruser
  • I did not say that the quality of smaller church musicians is missing, only that the larger churches with more money would most probably attract the more educated and experienced directors with larger churches. I hold a BM and have a lot of experience and work at a smaller church. My salary doesn't come anywhere near that of the larger churches. Perhaps I stated my opinion wrong in the above post.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    "Why would smaller churches not require the same quality of music and liturgy that huge churches do?"

    Because they can't afford it. There is SOME minimal level of quality, but let's remember that the Mass only "needs" the antiphons to be chanted by one singer. Doesn't take a six-figure salary and 12 choirs to pull off the Mass - though such things can be nice add-ons.

    I really don't like to see small churches attempt a cathedral-sized program. Or big churches get away with 4 hymns per Sunday led by a volunteer. All things in proportion.
    Thanked by 1PurpleSquirrel
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,501
    Regarding proportion, smaller churches often don't have as much work to do. Fewer Masses, special events, parishioners, volunteers, funerals, weddings, etc.
  • Yes, all things in proportion, but that doesn't mean having quality suffer. We've made some beautiful, Spirit anointed music in our little parish, which some of the bigger parishes fail to find because the programs are so big. I only have one choir and a children's choir. We have 4 masses every weekend, with the adults doing one, and the children doing another. The other two masses are me on the keyboard and a cantor. For special masses, i.e., Easter vigil, Christmas Eve, Pentecost, etc., I sometimes bring in a "special choir", that has worked thus far. I don't get paid anything extra for any of these "extra" things and just consider it part of ministry.

    Not all smaller churches subscribe to the "4 hymns per Sunday" led by a volunteer rule. Despite my parish's small size (approx. 400 families), I still play preludes and postludes, we do all the hymns, plus sometimes communion meditations, and all the mass parts, of course. My synthezing keyboard, while not my choice of instrument, does provide some beautiful sounds, giving our masses a sense of quality. And, my small choir (approx. 15 singers), when they are all there, do produce some gorgeous harmonies. And, my choir has a small group of singers (5-6) who are training to be a chant Schola.

    I don't consider this "minimal" level of quality.
    Thanked by 1PurpleSquirrel
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    Re: JPII's quote-
    So what does that say/imply about those who are working for the church but not the breadwinner for a family? (Perhaps there is more to the document than what is quoted...I'm just to lazy to go look it up right now...)
    Thanked by 1PurpleSquirrel
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,307
    Perhaps I did not understand your intent in your previous comment, MT. It doesn't sound like what you are doing is of anything less than high quality. Keep up the good work :)

    As a breadwinner who makes his living serving the church as a musician, it is very important to me and my family indeed that the Church pay a just wage for my work.
    Thanked by 1ryand
  • It's true. Being in a small parish, we really can't afford the same high-quality of music that some larger churches have. However, let's say we win the lottery. All of a sudden we have a bunch of money. There is still one problem.... There is no one there to do the job. A music director in our parish has signed his/her soul to the job for the next fifty years of their life. It does take a minimum amount of musical ability, even to just chant the antiphons. An ability which is just not there.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,697
    Some small churches make various sacrifices to hire a full time music director and give him/her a living wage. I worked at a very small parish with a small school that fully supported me when I was single with a very decent salary - they made sacrifices in other areas (the computer network in the office wasn't very good, the phone system wasn't updated as they had planned, they canceled a new parish-directory, etc). Sometimes these small parishes that "can't afford" to give a DM a decent salary are spending a lot of money on other things. It's a matter of priorities.

    In fact, the highest salary I was ever offered (I didn't take the job) was from a parish with a weekly collection of under 10k. When they made the offer I even questioned the business manager as to how they could afford it and they justified it by talking about some of the cutting of luxuries they would do.
    Thanked by 2PurpleSquirrel ryand
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    This church that I'm referring to has a weekly collection of just over 2k. I'm can't figure out how they can even turn the heat on with that...
    Thanked by 1PurpleSquirrel