i think the comparison is that the O is very much into praising himself

Regarding the Obama comment, though I strongly dislike bringing up politics here, I think we can discuss the man himself:

Many of his early speeches are self-referential in the same way of much of Catholic worship. I often suspect "We Are The Ones We Have Been Waiting For" is a hymn from Worship III. Or "Yes We Can". It's all about talking about us, us, us to make ourselves feel good, because of what we can do, in a somewhat Hegelian manner. It's the same tactic of Ronald Reagan's 1980 campaign, though instead of exalting the individual and urging him to action, Obama's speeches exalt and motivate the movement. Again, very, very similar to Catholic hymnody: "we are here, we are going to do this, we are going to accomplish great things, because we are this or that."

Politics or religion aside, it's an awful lot of talking about yourself.

"We are called, we are chosen..."

How snarky was that comment though, really? There are different rhetorical styles, and the President's happens to be very heavy on the "we." It's not necessarily a bad way of speaking politically, nothing to be embarassed or offended about, I feel.

I have a feeling all involved will enjoy this:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/uwFJv-kmaCc

Dandy, Ben. I tell you one thing: If I'm looking to throw a good party down and am interested in an entertainment spectacle, I'm going to the secular world to fill my tank. The secular world does it up a whole lot better. Clownish "catholic" exercises such as the music in this video (and who hasn't heard such things in church?) is fun for nobody.

Did I mention President Obama's politics? I mentioned him as a speaker. It is actually possible to talk about a politician without talking about politics, I should think. I'm talking about the art of rhetoric - any political commentary would be difficult to read into my post. Perhaps bringing up Hegel was a bit much, but it hasn't seemed to have sparked any controversy.

I don't want a liberal to feel unwanted on this forum. I don't want a conservative to feel unwanted on this forum. And I don't think anyone will feel that their political views are being challenged if I point out where the anthropocentrism in Catholic hymnography, which is here bemoaned, has strong currents in the larger American culture as well.

Francis, just gonna yank yer crank on a funny Monday morn:
From-"The Gloria Hymnal" For Use in Church and School and Home, Basilian Fathers, Benzinger Bros. Press, 1933....first hymn I just opened to:

#78 HAIL, JESUS, HAIL
1. Hail, Jesus, hail who for my sake Sweet Blood from Mary's veins did take,
And shed it all for me; and shed it all for me.
O Blessed be my Saviour's Blood, My life, my light, my only good,
My life, my light, my only good, To all eternity.
2. To endless ages let us praise The Precious Blood,
whose price could raise the world from wrath and sin; the world from wrath and sin.
Whose streams our inward thirst appease And heal the sinners worst disease,
And heal the sinners worst disease, If he but bathe therein.

Yes, it's not "Sing a New Church into being" but....just sayin'.
And I did get the "true" Catholic caveat.

The YouTube video that Ben Yanke posted got me thinking. If you're interested in what I'm thinking, you can read it here: The Lost and the Lame.

this problem has plagued the liturgy for centuries. i can cite problems back to 1500s

Hey guys! We are a Catholic forum...and, while people of all political persuasions are allowed and most heartily welcome, can we not say that our current president, with all of his blatantly anti-Catholic actions as of late, opens him up to maybe just a little criticism? The one that began this was of the mildest kind...

I really strongly object to discussion of political issues on this forum! It's a music forum.

Scott and Gavin, never have I mentioned any politician before, but really, we can sing all the right music and follow all the correct GIRM rubrics and all papal encyclicals and church councils and if we act like we don't or shouldn't have a public voice in the world, even a voice that sometimes opposes the powers of the world, then this is nothing but a petting zoo and a strange, quirky hobby. I say that, with the understanding that I am also opposed to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Viva Christo Rey! (Not Viva Republicans or Viva Democrats). On to hymns...

...we can sing all the right music and follow all the correct GIRM rubrics and all papal encyclicals and church councils and if we act like we don't or shouldn't have a public voice in the world, even a voice that sometimes opposes the powers of the world, then this is nothing but a petting zoo and a strange, quirky hobby... Viva Christo Rey! (Not Viva Republicans or Viva Democrats).

Usually, my preferred position is to observe at a distance, from the safety of the bushes, but the sword of truth pierced me with this comment of yours, JIF. Thank you for this.

I don't think that keeping politics out of a forum like this means we regard liturgy and music as detached from witness and mission. It simply means that this is the forum where the music itself is discussed. The rest can be dealt with in other forums.

I agree. There are plenty of other places to discuss politics, and while I am as fervent as anyone about current events, I would prefer that we keep them out of this arena. We have enough things to discuss in an animated fashion.

the minute you separate your faith from politics is the day the government will tell you how to live your faith

hmmm.... gee... isn't this happening lately?!

you want this as a political blog fine, kiss me goodbye. since when does love of and service towards traditional liturgy means being a republican. as an obama supporter am i not welcome here?

On the other hand, wouldn't it be just as easy for someone to NOT post their political opinions as it would be for someone to ignore them? I'd say that its actually even easier, as nobody needs to ignore what they do not see/hear.

For example, my political views are easily ignored in this post, as I have not shared them. I could be anything from a communist a tea-party member, but you don't have to read that or exercise any self-censorship in not replying ... because I'm not going to share my political opinions on a forum about music.

Is it too much to ask that other members do the same?


This may be a CATHOLIC forum, but its topic is Catholic MUSIC and the rubrics of Catholic LITURGY.

Unless Obama starts mandating reforms to the mass or requiring that we include a few tunes by Al Green every week, I don't see how anything regarding politicians needs to be discussed on this forum.

It's rather Catholic to discuss humanitarian aide to third-world nations, but that's not something that belongs on this forum - so it also goes with politics.

Anything can be mentioned, but should it be discussed?

Ryand, and don roy,

I said it before - this whole forum is not Viva Republican or Viva Democrat, it is Viva Christo Rey! It is about Christ the King, who established a Church, the Catholic Church. The Mass is the greatest prayer one can offer and is the prayer of the Church. Music is its humble servant.

Also, as I said before, nobody here started criticizing Obama's handling of the Euro crisis or the North Koreans, nor did they laud him for Bin Laden or getting out of Iraq. I have no idea how anyone on here feels about these topics, and I am glad! I would venture that you don't know my voting history, either; whether I am a life-long Republican or a disenfranchised Democrat - I have not shared that with you.

From the recent lawsuits brought on by Catholic institutions and dioceses against the current administration, the administration's abandonment of the Defense of Marriage Act, their support of same sex marriage and even their desire to have it be a chief principle in their party's 2012 platform!!!, their HHS department MANDATING that Catholics violate their consciences in forcing them to pay for artificial contraception and abortion on demand, to constantly referring to "Freedom of WORSHIP" and not the founders' "Freedom of RELIGION"... these are all uniquely and grossly troubling aspects of this Administration...and they can hardly be ignored.

The Traditional Catholic Liturgy again is the PRAYER of the Catholic Church, the Church Christ Himself founded. If the Church is under attack, whether by Democrat, Republican, Atheist, Radical Homosexuals, Communists, (remember Archbishop Sheen), Green Party, anyone, we have a DUTY to try to correct it, through prayer, words and actions. What does Jesus Christ want? I give my taxes,my civil obedience and civil duties to Caesar (the government). I must give to God what is God's, and that is always a higher call. Neither George W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton nor Barack Obama are my Savior. "I will call upon the name of the Lord..." (I Corinthians 1:2)

Ryand, I was with you until, "I don't see how anything regarding politicians needs to be discussed on this forum."

So we can't discuss Frederick the Great or Henry VIII (both composing monarchs of some import)?

Frankly, I still don't see that there was anything wrong with my mention of the president. I was speaking of oratorical style, and the president is a noted orator. If people disagree with my opinion of his oratory, they can do so without resorting to some swivel-eyed partisan Hulkamania. I'm more than a little annoyed that what I thought to be an interesting topic was sidetracked by political commentary.

I'd like to call attention to the fact that I haven't mentioned, even in passing, my (really quite strong) opinion of the president, his party, his policies, or the legislation he has championed. That was intentional - this forum isn't the place for that opinion.

any political comment or aside has the capability of hurting someone unintentionally. comments about radicals homosexuals and other devients are hurtful to people yoiu dont even know. with all the challenges we face as traditional musicians in a church that is ambivilant at best, i would think that complicating it further by irrelivent comments and asides would be best avoided in a forum as badly needed as this one is. Lets not go the way of other blogs and contaminate it with rancor and pol;itical hatred.

Guys, I'm sorry I started a riot here by not more thoroughly editing my quote (at the least). I didn't mean to start a political discussion, but clearly I did so. Those who want to know where I stand politically will have to find my blog, or friend me on Facebook or something.

Don, a. don't leave; b. there a blogs-a-plenty for the political Catholic malcontents, discontents, incontinents, and "I like RENT's." So, we can have our Panis Angelicus-Living Bread here, and let those folks roll over to those other locales for their no-bake cake and Twinkies. Stay churchy, my friend.

Wow, Charles in CenCA, that photo of you is even more than I imagined! You don't look anything like your cat. Does your voice share the same timbre as the Dos Equis gentleman?

Richard, my cat displays my general disposition, that is guaranteed.
And sadly, Ex1, I'm a tenor, which among many qualities, excludes me from being a gentleman (sorry JDE) and I don't smoke Cuban stogies or anything else for that matter, and if I have to drink cerveza, only Negro Modelo or Bohemia will do. I'm a notorious WINO, post grad done with Mahrt, MJB, Turk and m'wife at the Wine Institute of New Orleans.