Who sang the propers pre-Vatican II?
  • DGG
    Posts: 1
    Hello: can someone kindly tell me who chanted the propers at your typical parish High Mass before Vatican II? The context of my question: I've attended some masses at St. John Cantius in Chicago and they have a group of brothers/priests that chant the propers and they have a separate choir (male & female) that sings the ordinary. I've also seen the 1941 Latin Mass on Youtube at Our Lady of Sorrows basilica narrated by Bishop Fulton Sheen. At that mass they had a large group of seminarians from Mundelein singing the propers.

    I'm assuming that in years past, your average neighborhood parish didn't have a group of brothers, or obviously, a group of visiting seminarians to chant the propers, so who did it? Thanks!
    Thanked by 1ScottKChicago
  • First, you need to understand that all the priests were trained in singing the Mass at seminary and they knew what they should be doing. As a result of this training, in a town of 17,000, 60 miles from the nearest major city, the pastor found a man from a town a bit closer to the city who came out for a series of rehearsals, and taught the men and boys how to sing the Mass. Boys learned ordinary, men learned ordinary and Rossini Propers.

    The women sang at another low mass. People did not.

    Every weekday morning, a woman organist sang the high mass and the Rossini propers of the day at 7:00 & 8:00 Mass. The nuns attended 7:00 Mass and then came in with their school classes for 8:00 Mass.

    The school classes did not sing, except at confirmation and first communion, usually some very touching hymns, but nothing in Latin.

    The choir loft was up on the left side of the altar, placed with columns blocking view of of the choir, as was expected.

    You know, we need to recruit some really old nuns and priests on this group.
    Thanked by 1ScottKChicago
  • I'm fascinated by the topic of parish liturgical life pre-Vatican II, possibly because I remember the sliver of that life that I experienced as a very young child before everything changed. Most of what I remember is from Our Lady Queen of Peace, Milwaukee. High Mass was sung by a small group of women, and I think they were nuns. Masses were advertised on a billboard outside, with a row of multicolored circles that looked like bus routes or something: Masses in the church on the hour at 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12. High Mass was at 11, and there were Low Masses downstairs on the half-hour. (I remember schedules like this because they fascinated me, a weird kid.) I remember the disappointment when Dad opted to take us to the basement for Low Mass among the folding chairs. Very busy parish.
  • Felicity
    Posts: 77
    DGG,

    The question is about the "typical parish High Mass" so I am assuming that you refer to the (main) Mass on Sunday. At my parish (in a town of 23,000 with two Catholic Churches), there was a Men's Choir which sang both the Propers and the Ordinary for this Mass. (The Ordinary was always polyphonic.)

    I want to add:
    The 6:00am Mass was chanted acapella (from the Liber) by the teaching nuns 7 days a week. (Propers & Ordinary)

    During the school year the 11:00am Mass (Monday through Friday) was chanted by the Grade School. We were formally taught the Ordinary in 6th grade and we were taught how to use our Missals and chant the Propers to a psalm tone in 7th grade.

    During the school year the daily 8:00am Mass (Monday through Saturday) was chanted by the High School mixed choir. (The freshman, sophomore, junior, and senior members of the mixed choir took turns on Saturdays, thus choir members only sang one Saturday in four.)

    In the summers during several weeks when the nuns were not in residence, one or the other of the student organists (organists who were students in the Grade School or High School and trained by one of the Sisters) was paid to play and chant the weekday Masses. Same scheme as school day Masses, chanted Ordinary with Propers chanted to a psalm tone.
    ------------------------------
    Summary of "who chanted the Propers":
    The main Mass on Sunday: Men's Choir
    Other Masses: the Nuns, the High School Mixed Choir, the 7th & 8th graders, student organists.
    ------------------------------

    Noel,

    I wish you great luck with recruiting "some really old nuns and priests". It would be best if they were music or organ teachers because they would have been the ones most involved with the chant.
    Thanked by 1ScottKChicago
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    wow... :)
  • Felicity
    Posts: 77
    An added thought:

    My childhood parish had its origin with German immigrants. What I have described was typical of the many German-origin parishes in Missouri. I know this because I had cousins (many) who lived in different parishes and we often exchanged information. One of my cousins, at a different parish, was one of the student organists.

    Deo gratias!
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,003
    Felicity,

    I suspected as much. Irish-controlled parishes were much less likely to see that pattern, shall we say.
  • MARYFA
    Posts: 9
    In a typical U. K. parish pre-V2 we sang various Mass settings: Turner, Terry, Cary etc.
    We only sang plainsong Masses in Advent and Lent- mostlly Missa de Angelis. the Propers were sung usually by the men of the choir to a Psalm tone. This pattern was
    pretty standard around the country. We did sing the Christmas plainsong proper and the correct Easter Vigil chants. About 1961 a new PP. introduced us to Bevenot's
    Propers in Re, Sol and so on. All the choir sang these.
    Unfortunately they were swept away in the V2 Tsunami
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    Was the choir ever mixed voices? Or were there a separate men's and women's choirs that sang at different Masses?
  • From Walter Whitehouse's 2008 study (quoting what he describes as the most comprehensive survey of the actual state of Catholic Church music in the United States the early 1950s):

    The Parish Choir. The vast majority of parishes use children’s choirs exclusively. These do try in many cases to carry out the ideals of the Church to some extent. . . . Many of these however omit essential parts of the singing demanded by the Church. The Church’s ideal of choirs of men and boys is still lacking in most of our parishes. Where such exist the music comes very close, however, to the ideals of the Church. Most adult choirs are either female or mixed and, to judge from our survey, most of them only partially carry out the liturgical norms in their singing.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,225
    Late '50's through mid-'60's in a western Milwaukee suburb, a mixed choir sang the Ordinaries (polyphonic) and its men sang the Propers from the Graduale or Rossini. Always Mass XVII for Lent and Advent, excepting Gaudete/Laetare, where un-accompanied polyphony (e.g. Hassler's "Secunda" was sung.
    Thanked by 2irishtenor CHGiffen
  • Nana
    Posts: 1
    Early 1950's we had a schola made up of school children who sang at daily Low Mass. (note Low Mass not High Mass). The hymns were done ONLY in Latin at processional, offertory, communion, recessional as far as I can remember. The St Gregory Hymnal was used and I even now have a copy with a note saying it was from the "Sister's Chapel Dec 25, 1947.
    Thanked by 1ScottKChicago
  • Mike R
    Posts: 106
    The experience of my parents (who both grew up in rural parishes) was for the schoolchildren to do all the singing.
  • I sang the psalm-tone propers and the Kyriale from late boyhood. In the minor and major seminary I sang the propers from the Liber Usualis. In the minor seminary we attended weekly and sang monthly at our Cathedral and Holy Week we sang everything.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,697
    Paul, when will you write an autobiography? I would be the first on a waiting list to buy it.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • Matthew, how flattering! I actually make a twenty-page version available to my students in ecclesiology and sacramental theology so that they can see where I'm coming from and can write their own church and sacrament experiences. If you send me your email address, I can send you a copy.