Catholic choir robes
  • JennyH
    Posts: 106
    What does everyone think of Catholic choir robes? Look too Protestant? No? Do your women wear surplices?
  • It depends on whether your choir is visible or not. I can think of many better uses for my music budget if the choir is in a loft, but if your choir has to be down on the floor, robes might be advisable.

    I also juggled with the surplice issue in my last parish. I settled on simple (off) white tunics with simple neck crosses. It worked well. They looked much more solemn without drawing too much attention to the choir.
    Thanked by 1dbailey
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    Sing to the Lord 33 suggests, "Choir and ensemble members may dress in albs or choir robes, but always in clean, presentable, and modest clothing. Cassock and surplice, being clerical attire, are not recommended as choir vesture." There is no citation, so I don't know if any other documents have any similar suggestions.
  • tomboysuzetomboysuze
    Posts: 289
    I don't particularly like robes and I've had choir members (the most vocal and emphatic is now Dean of the School of Philosophy at CUA - so I decided he knew best) tell me they'd quit if I made them wear robes.

    But, I have used stoles for my young choirs to give them a sense of identity and pride in being a member of a choir when building a music program for a school.

    I've always wanted something for my H.S. girls to wear, made from black silk, lined so that it moves gracefully, and weighted at the bottom..without sleeves and open on both sides - in black, trimmed with expensive gold braid.
    sort of like this, but without the large embroidered panes and a narrower cut;
    like the ones these nuns are wearing in blue...

    http://jesucaritas.tumblr.com/page/24

    What are you thinking?
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,121
    I think they indeed look Protestant, are a waste of money, and are not suited for church spaces that lack air-conditioning; I can't say anything good in their defense except perhaps that they let people dress down underneath, shall we say. I think a uniform look for a Catholic parish choir is overrated.
  • Cassock and surplice, being clerical attire,

    Nobody tell the altar servers...

    If it were an all male schola, I would definitely spring for cassock and surplice. A cassock is, however, a male garment. It would look funny on a woman. Now stoles are absolutely clerical attire, and a lay choir should not wear them.
  • This issue has been hashed and re-hashed so many times....but I don't think there has ever been a reasonable answer....but here is my thought:

    Cassocks and surplices are clerical dress. When clerics are sitting literally "in coro", they wear cassocks and surplices. Now, traditionally when laymen have filled the role of a cleric, they have taken the attire of the cleric (think the "straw" subdeacon). However....when women enter the picture, the matter gets blurred. The men who fill these roles could, in theory, be made clerics. Women cannot be clerics. Seeing women in clerical attire is weird at best and scandalous at worst.

    So, I see two ways to avoid the matter:

    1. Since the choir is rarely "in coro" (mostly because most choirs include women, who cannot sit "in coro"), there really is no need for them to be vested. As most choirs aren't visible (are in the loft), there really is no point.

    2. If your choir is in the front and you truly feel the need for them to be vested, then the alb would be appropriate. It is the baptismal garment, so it is technically it is appropriate to all the baptized. However, the alb should be an actual alb...not a Protestant choir robe....which just looks silly as a vestment in Catholic worship. These look reasonable: http://www.simplychoral.us/product/4001

    Honestly, though, it just seems to be that money would be better spent on so many other things in the parish music program.

    Adam S.
    Thanked by 1tomboysuze
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700

    If you have a choir that is highly visible, just making them wear concert black is the best option for me. If I were at a cathedral, then perhaps cassock/surplice.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,200
    At least (I hope) you don't have to attend a cantored Mass, music from the OCP, accompanied by an electric keyboard, with the cantor wearing denims and a dark colored t-shirt. That was my (mis)fortune this past Sunday, sad to say.
  • tomboysuzetomboysuze
    Posts: 289
    @ Liam, yes, you are right. I posted in haste... I should have clarified that I was looking for a solution for my then, 8th and 9th grade girls who were going to Pueri Cantores Festivals and performing prelude music before 1000 people in incredibly beautiful churches in New York. Some of them had black skirts that were too short or shirts that weren't ironed...etc. Anyway - they didn't own much black clothing and I was trying to find some solution that wasn't choir robes or their school uniforms. (they didn't actually wear stoles either, but rather a kind of sash that didn't tie....I don't care for the stole thing...)

    Anyway - I'm a fan of concert black -and that's what my choirs wear.
  • JennyH
    Posts: 106
    thanks for these
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,502
    I posted a question about them here: http://www.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/6144/choir-gowns#Item_22

    We have robes. Yes, they are not inexpensive. I like having them because too many people dress down, or simply inappropriately. We have many (though not all!) younger women in the choir and generally I shake my head at what they deem proper attire for Mass! (I'm so prudent!) Even if I suggested all black or black and white, then I would be monitoring tightness, length, sheerness... and on it goes. Gowns just solve all these problems. I notice that the choristers walk in a neater way wearing gowns. We do sing in the loft, but walk to the altar for Communion. Our parish is not poor. It does have air conditioning, though with 800 for Mass, it is still often warm in the loft. But it is what the choristers prefer and it's fine by me.
  • Simon
    Posts: 161
    In Adrian Fortesque's Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Described (a standard reference work first published in 1917 and reprinted, re-edited many times since and widely available) is stated in chapter 2 (The Vestments of the Roman Rite) : The common dress for servers and all who assist at any function in choir is a black CASSOCK (talare) with a white linen SURPLICE (superpelliceum).

    Also instructive are the comments in chapter 5, part 1 (The Liturgical Choir) where Fortesque states: We must note first that the "choir" during a service does not necessarily mean those who sing. It was so originally. In theory, no doubt, it should be so still, namely, that the singers have their places right and left of the altar and sing there. But there are often practical difficulties against this. In singing part-music especially it is often difficult to produce a good artistic effect when the singers are arranged in two rows facing each other, perhaps at some distance, across the church. Often, therefore, the actual singers are placed elsewhere, in a space together at the side behind a grating, behind the altar, or in a gallery at the other end of the church. In such cases no notice is taken of them during the ceremonies. There remains, however, the possibility that a liturgical " choir" may assist at the service; even if they sing only part, or none, of the chants.

    Later editions of this reference work may have other comments. I only have a copy of the first edition. A copy of the 1917 edition is online at:

    http://www.global.org/Pub/Ceremonies_of_the_Roman_Rite_Described.asp.html

    I, therefore, go for the cassock and surplice for choirs. It's an ancient catholic tradition that precedes the reformation. It's not protestant. Our church (in Amsterdam) has purple cassocks for Advent and Lent and red for other liturgical seasons. And white surplices, of course. We moved from the gallery (since the church's opening in 1887) to the choir (after a renovation of the building ensured the space) some 10-12 years ago.
  • tomboysuzetomboysuze
    Posts: 289
    Prologue: I finally figured out that what I actually wanted for my girls choir are "clerical scapulars" like the blue garment over the grey dresses that these adorable nuns are wearing while playing ultimate frisbee. http://jesucaritas.tumblr.com/page/24

    but in black, silk, with gold braid....but over what? that I don't know....
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,988
    We don't use robes. Our choir is in a loft 20 feet above the main floor. Our air conditioning system keeps the loft temperature constant - hot year round. We are out of sight and usually uncomfortable enough without adding robes.