New Translation Reproaches (Improperia)
  • Richard,

    No, it's not hyperbolic. I just haven't managed to put the Latin (which I have to go fish up from a pond) and the English along side each other. Memory tells me that "prepared" isn't translated by "duxit".


  • My problem with the ICEL translation is not that it's English, but that it takes intentional word play and neutralizes it.

    Examples of what I mean, not using the Reproaches...

    The prayers for the feast day of St. Ignatius Loyola make use of Igne -- fire.
    The propers for the Feast of St. Margaret of Scotland include the "pearl of great price", which is margarita in Latin.

    "These prayers are full of puns" is about as left-handed a compliment as one could hope to make. Addison, as he so often does, cuts right to the marrow:

    "The only way therefore to try a piece of wit, is to translate it into a different language: if it bears the test, you may pronounce it true; but if it vanishes in the experiment, you may conclude it to have been a pun. In short, one may say of a pun, as the countryman described his nightingale, that it is vox, et præterea nihil; a sound, and nothing but a sound."
  • But these are not puns, they are reflections on the meaning of the saints' names. It's true that Ignatius probably doesn’t really mean "fiery", but that's what they thought it meant. And margarita really does mean "pearl".
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Andrew,

    Thank you.


  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,740
    It seems to me a queer notion of what poetry is. The office of our parish's patron David of Wales has a pun too but unfortunately 'all the poetry' was removed from the Latin translation when "whale" was rendered as "cetus".
    Thanked by 2MarkThompson MBW
  • We are going to sing the Victoria Reproaches in English, combined with an English translation of the verses, set to chant tones by Fr. Gaisford (English Benedictine priest.)
    We sing the "Agios " section with a small group in Greek, then sing the next part in English with the whole choir. It's sort of a mashup, but it flows pretty well. We also sing the Stabat Mater by Tartini, (SSA) with the even numbered verses sung in English (with the congregation) by the lower voices. A few tenors sing the alto part of the Tartini.
    All of this came about as a result of this forum, so thank you all very much!
  • Jazzer
    Posts: 34
    Hi again everyone,

    I am desperately searching for a copy of this version of the Reproaches, uploaded to youtube by a Thomas Myrick.

    Please help if you can!

  • Jazzer,

    The reproaches in that YouTube video are from the Lalemant Propers
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,740
    In response to requests, here is Victoria notated a tone lower and with more complete cues for the choir:
    Thanked by 2eft94530 Heath