Charismatic Catholics using Traditional Chant etc?
  • What would one here make of a charismatic catholic group that plays on the guitar and sings the sequence "Veni Sancte Spiritu" according to the english adaptation in the 1940 episcopal hymnal and afterwards sings and prays a Moloben to the Holy Spirit according to the book provided from the Carptho-Rus Byzantine Catholic Metropolia of Pittsburgh?

    I have apparently encountered some charismatic catholics that like traditional liturgical music.
    Forgive my ignorance, I did not know this was common.

    Is this a good thing? if one of them wants to form a schola and sing the simple english propers at mass or formal setting does this seem to be something I ought to pursue and collaborate on?

    Is this the direction the Church is going in now?
    Are there really people who don't only like modern music and freely support a wider variety used who are charismatic catholic music directors?
    Is it really simply a matter of education and awareness and they than embrace it?

    Has some sort of tide turned? Or have I walked out of an episode of the twilight zone.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,826
    wow, chris... not sure i understand what you are saying, but what is the 'direction' you are alluding to? typical 'folk groups' morphing into a new genre of chant with guitars?? simple english propers with guitars???? if you collaborate, perhaps you could demonstrate how a cappella is 'pure' liturgical music, and that simple modal chords on an 8' flute are a perfect accomp. (does the church have a good acoustic? the sound MUST come back to them to captivate them for plainchant performance (unaccompanied).
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    I actually know a church that is EXACTLY like what you describe. Interesting (I wonder if it's the same one...there can't be all that many in the US!)

    To respond to what you and francis bring up, based on the single charismatic Catholic parish with which I am familiar, actually, the music director there is incredibly friendly and appreciative of chant and a cappella singing. (It is the pastor who needs convincing. However, I personally do not see how chant/polyphony are at all conducive to their way of worshiping...so I would tend to side with the pastor! While I would hope that their way of worshiping "develops" into more "spiritually mature" forms like more reverent/traditional music, I think--if you're going to be charismatic, then be charismatic! But... I think in the case of this particular church that perhaps the music director is trying to lead the church in that direction?)

    Anyhow, IME, these charismatics are faaaaaar closer to being devout/orthodox/reverent/obedient to the church's teachings, etc, than mainstream Catholic music. (Nor are true charismatics just like "folk groups," as they often get confused for.)

    So, what do you mean "is this the direction the Church is going in?" Do you mean the direction charismatics are going in? Perhaps. I do not know. I personally think they will either go that way or else slowly die out, like most of the rest of the Church who doesn't embrace the "reform of the reform."

    "Are there really people who don't only like modern music and freely support a wider variety used who are charismatic catholic music directors?"
    Most definitely.

    Education and awareness?
    In what I have seen, the charismatics that I know became such while they were in college, in the 60s and 70s. They literally only saw a dying church. The thing that brought them back to Christ-- the place where they first actually had a personal experience with Jesus, was in the charismatic movement. So, they are reluctant to leave it. However, as they have continued on their personal spiritual journey, growing in holiness, they are beginning to appreciate more and more (as individuals,) the importance of having music that is more "reverent." For many of them, the outward-directed worship that first brought them spiritual fulfillment, is becoming supplemented by more "vertical" worship and personal, even silent, prayer. (Think John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila.) And, they are discovering a time and a place for music that accompanies such experiences. (This is the biggest thing, I think, that separates them from "contemporary" Catholic music-- which has, for the most part neglected to develop music that is vertically focused, and stayed on an immature spiritual plane of "link arms and rock and sway." Although both are focused on more emotional music, the theology within it can be VASTLY different.)

    Anyhow, this is only my experience from the one, single, parish I am very familiar with. Other charismatic groups could be vastly different...
  • Yes, a priest I spoke with thinks that charismatics are often more open to "new (old) ideas" than many average catholics, but that this is not always recognized by those unfamiliar with them, and not universally true of all charismatics either.

    I live in a very rural area. I think in more rural areas charismatics could theoretically be having more vestiges traditional prayer than they do in the larger cities.

    Most people in my region are certainly more frequently more socially conservative, this would of course lead to more theological conservatism as well I should think. Most of the Churches here did not have their altar rails thrown out or removed compared to those in the suburbs of Washington, DC and Baltimore, which are often the epitome of modernist architecture. Most of them have most of historical furnishings and beauty in tact.

    I also think that what ties the two of us together is mysticism. (DEFINITION: is the knowledge of, and especially the personal experience of, states of consciousness, i.e. levels of being, beyond normal human perception, including experience of and even communion with a supreme being.)

    My attraction to traditional music has always been that it is mystical, besides being beautiful and the most meaningful in its both the free composed poetry and biblical quoations.

    Perhaps charismatics openess and love of mysticism (as well as the bible) is what makes them in some instances able to develop these wider ranges of taste.

    Where else would the Holy Spirit lead us, but to that which is Orthodox.

    I am inspired by this experience. Life seems brighter, full of possibilities.

  • But yes, the real test becomes whether groups like this effect positively the pastor and any sort of "liturgical commission" that holds sway. They are of course the ultimate in whether parishes themselves can adopt these practices outside of a private social group. Once again the hierarchy matters, yet at the same time, if you have enough people who want something which coming of holy venerable tradition, they should be impacted to accept it eventually.
  • AngelaRAngelaR
    Posts: 319
    "Where else would the Holy Spirit lead us, but to that which is Orthodox."

    Amen, amen. I know well the parish that Mara refers to; I grew up in it. My friends from that parish are among the closest that I have. They are sincerely on fire to do what is right.

    Ultimately, the question is: how does one respond to the call to obedience? I unfortunately know many traditional musicians that do not respond to this call with the readiness that some of my charismatic friends do. Ultimately, for our work to be fruitful, we must constantly be seeking God's will in our lives and through the Church, and be ready for surprising answers. My charismatic friends teach me a lot about the need to be constantly attentive to this. I think that is why some of them are so open to chant.

    I pray that I carry that into my own music ministry. After all, aren't we ultimately doing what we do to bring people closer to Christ?
    Thanked by 1marajoy
  • There IS a spectrum of behaviours and attittudes by which 'charismatics' are identified in most peoples' minds; and, to a degree, by which 'charismatics' self-identify.
    I have never, though, been willing to concede that those people who call themselves charismatic and fit these descriptions are, in fact, the only charismatics, nor that 'charismatics' should have a monopoly on the term 'charismatic'.
    It has long been my contention that plainchant IS charismatic and that people who sing it are possessed of a charism. So, it shouldn't be remarkable that your 'charismatics' like chant or any other music that isn't 'charismatic', because all good music is of charisma.
    There is, then, no anomaly involved with your friends who recognise the spiritual depth of plainchant and other fine music. What would one expect of charismatic persons? Aren't we all charismatic? I certainly hope so. No one group has a monopoly on charism or the signifer, 'charismatic'. Your priest should rejoice!

    I always tell my scholas and choirs to say when people ask them if they like charismatic music (oh, and 'Christian music', too) that, oh, yes! we do! we love Gregorian chant and Palestrina. Say it with a big smile and be dead serious.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Call me crazy, but I think it's a great thing if anyone likes and uses chant.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,826
    Gregorian chant is as natural and good and necessay to life as the sun. Without it the Church becomes jaundiced in mind, body, soul and spirit.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    [rhetorical]

    Can we please define charismatic?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Is that a rhetorical question in the sense that the question answers itself? Or are you hoping for a clarification?
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    lol-- I love that the absolute first parish in that wikipedia article is precisely the one I was describing!
  • rob
    Posts: 148
    To Francis: I love the image. It reminds me of my youth when an old priest, responding to a boy who claimed to get nothing from the Mass, responded:
    "But, don't even blind men tan?"

    Ex opere operato!
  • AngelaRAngelaR
    Posts: 319
    Tee hee, Mara, you and me both. :-)