Would you please point out either (a) the hymn tunes in Worship IV that are NOT traditional tunes or (b) the ones that are traditional - whichever is more convenient for you. It would be nice to have a similar list for St. Michael and Adoremus, too.

Also, I wonder just what the meaning of "traditional" is in this context. It seems as if there might be some variance of opinion unless one is willing to be more precise. For example, how does one categorize a newly composed hymn tune in what one might call a "traditional style" - is it traditional or non-traditional?

Wikipedia: "There Is A Balm in Gilead" is a traditional United States African American spiritual.

I'm not sure what's not "traditional" about the style of Gather Us In. The form is the common AABA' of most chorales. The meter is intended to serve the poetic text (well, I wouldn't call the text poetic, but you get my meaning!). A few points make it stand out from other, more well-established hymn tunes: its composition by the author of the text, its dorian mode (surely we aren't going to exclude modal melodies??), that silly interlude at the end, the time signature, it is plainly written as a monophonic melody (although, while commonly found in four parts, the Lutheran chorales were originally conceived of as monophonic songs). I don't know if any of these are enough to warrant it being classed as a "non-traditional" hymntune. A good hymntune? No, but neither is ODE TO JOY. I'd argue both are "traditional" in genre.

I propose that many wish to determine what is and is not "traditional" based on personal taste. I view this as intellectual dishonesty and spiritual bullying.


Now how do I draw the line? There is clearly a difference between EIN FESTE BURG and "Here I am, Lord" which Jeff is noticing. The difference is difficult to articulate indeed! Let me state some properties I see "traditional hymn tunes" as having:
- Not requiring instrumental accompaniment to sing effectively
- Tonal melody, well-constructed by the rules of classic composition
- Simple regular meter
- Simple rhythm
- Rests are inserted by the singing community
Of course, a "traditional hymn tune" is generally agreed as being harmonized in four parts and better accompanied on the organ - although I caution this is more a convention than an observable property of the tune itself.

I'd further propose that there is a spectrum of "traditionalness", if you will: ST ANNE is clearly "traditional". The Vaughan Williams tunes fail on at least one each of these. The Lutheran Chorales, in their original form, had syncopations and shifting meters. Somewhat less "traditional". "Awesome God" - requires accompaniment, has a tonal but not well-constructed melody, the rhythm is not at all simple, and the melody relies upon the written rests. NOT "traditional"!

I do not wish to propose "traditional" as a substitute for or aid to good musical judgment. Like Jeff, I want new tunes which abandon the "traditional" style while preserving the ease of participation, flexibility, nobility, and beauty of the "traditional" style hymns. I haven't seen any.


And let me say I agree completely with Jeff's main point in this thread: the Vatican II Hymnal is far superior to any offering of major Catholic publishers in its tune content's quality and quantity.

Other sources for hymn tunes that I would call "Traditional" (along with German Chorales and Anglican sources):
-Other European, particularly French (PICARDY) and Italian (the tune usually associated with O Sanctissima, despite it's German name in V2H, is actually Italian)
-British Isle folk songs (from whence come many Anglican hymns: ST. COLUMBA, SLAINE)
-Gregorian hymns from the Divine Office
-Hymns and Sequences in a chant style, but which are not part of the "official" "canon."
-various American sources... notably the Shape Note tradition (BOURBON and HOLY MANNA), which (more than, say, Black Gospel) continued the European understanding of tunes as separate from text. (It's worth noting that many American protestant traditions trace their spiritual roots back to Anglicanism, by way of the Puritans and other similar groups).

I am also very cautious about JMO's attempt at defining/deciding "Traditional" too narrowly. You might not like HOLY MANNA, but I think you'd be hard pressed to say it isn't "Traditional."

I think Gavin's descriptive list is probably a good start for something better than "I know it when I hear it" or "Traditional is stuff I like."

Ritual Song, which my church is still using, does have a decent selection of traditional hymns. My objections to it are based both on the well-known hymns left out, and the mostly wretched psalms. I haven't seen Worship IV, but it sounds like it would be similar.

Fr. Jim, it would be interesting if you could, perhaps, list 10-15 traditional hymn TUNES that are in Worship IV but not in the V2H. From the comparison I did, it seemed (much to my surprise) that the V2H has more traditional hymn TUNES than Worship IV. You're right that it does rest on one's criterion in this assessment; for instance, I don't think the V2H contains many (if any?) early American tunes.

Another major difference between GIA and the V2H is that the V2H keeps more traditional language, as has been discussed. Just like the ADOREMUS and the ST. MICHAEL's, the V2H keeps much more traditional language (even "thees and thous") than do the GIA publications, which frequently alter the texts. Working at a major Cathedral for four years, the constant changes and alterations to the hymn language by RitualSong drove me batty. From what I could tell, many of the changes had to do with so-called "inclusive" language and efforts to copyright the texts.

JMO,

Thanks for your good and honest questions.

I took a quick look at the Hymn Tune Indices of both the Vatican II hymnal and Worship IV. In answer to your first question, here are a dozen hymn tunes in Worship IV (that some might call “Traditional”) that aren’t in the Vatican II hymnal. (I just started at the beginning of the alphabet, listing those of which I was sure, and stopped when I reached a dozen.):

ABERYSTWYTH (Joseph Parry, 1841-1903)
ALL SAINTS (German, 1698)
AR HYD Y NOS (Welsh)
AZMON (Carl Glaser, 1784-1829)
BEATUS VIR (Slovak, 16th c.)
COENA DOMINI (Arthur Sullivan, 1842-1900)
CORONATION (Oliver Holden, 1765-1844)
DARWALL’S 148th (John Darwall, 1731-1789)
DETROIT (Kentucky Harmony, 1820)
FESTAL SONG (William H. Walter, 1825-1893)
FOUNDATION (1832)
GAUDEAMUS PARITER (Johann Horn, c. 1495-1547)

Your questions about alteration of hymn texts are good ones, and not all will agree on the various philosophies used by different hymnal editors.

That being said, even though I was one of the five general editors for Worship IV, we did not usually deal with text alteration questions. There was a separate editorial committee for texts. So I’m not especially qualified to answer all the text questions in detail. Here’s what the Preface to Worship IV states about this: “Each text has undergone the scrutiny of a newly formed English Text Review Committee. Hymns having more than a century of use were compared to their original versions as well as to their versions in contemporary hymnals. Some previously omitted verses were added, some original wording was restored, and other edits were made according to the best judgment of the committee. Alterations made to copyrighted texts were done with permission.”

However, from my observations of the hymns in Worship IV, I think I can address a few text points. First, the “thee/thy” constructions in “beloved” and well-known texts were retained (e.g. “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name,” “Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones” etc.) It seems to me that when an older text with “thee/thy” language wasn’t considered especially well-known, then it was sometimes changed to “you/your” unless the rhyme scheme prohibited it.

As far as “inclusive” language, there was no hesitation using male pronouns for God as Father or referring to God as “him” or “his” (“vertical language”) when appropriate. But with “horizontal language” (men/women), an effort was often made to be inclusive, if it was not seen as a disservice to the text.

I do not think that the editors of current or former GIA hymnals made changes to public domain texts in order to copyright the text. In fact, I think this happened only once in Worship IV (“Sing We Now of Christmas” to the tune NOEL NOUVELET) when the text editors basically wrote a new hymn to this text composed by the famous “Anonymous.”! Perhaps some confusion happens in looking at copyright lines in GIA hymnals, and seeing a copyright symbol on an older text, but upon closer examination the copyright refers only to the organ or SATB arrangement.

Finally, I apologize for this lengthy post, but wanted to answer JMO’s questions as thoroughly as I can. Also, I realize that many here at CMAA may not agree with some of these text editing philosophies. But I hope we can at least understand the rationale, and respect each other’s differences.

Jeffrey,

I really don't know the answer to your question. Sometimes the same hymn tune has more than one name. If the tune GAUDEAMUS PARITER is also known as AVE VIRGO VIRGINUM, I wasn't aware of that.

Fr. Jim

Richard, as I noted on another thread (concerning the new Oramos Cantando / We Pray in Song hymnal) GIA informed me today that the 101-page index from that hymnal will be posted on its website. Perhaps that will lead to the indexes from other hymnals also being posted, who knows?

At first I did not notice the dates on this discussion and thought it had all taken place this afternoon! After reading through everything, I discovered that only your comment, Richard, was made today.

I did want to respond to Jeff's comment, from December 2011, in case no one has addressed this issue in the past 1 1/2 years:

I cannot even tell exactly which "tune" many of the hymn tunes in the index of Worship IV reference --- for instance, HEALER OF OUR EVERY ILL (965) is probably the song called "Healer of our every ill" by Marty Haugen in RitualSong, yet this tune name is not listed in the back of RitualSong . . . perhaps because it is not a traditional tune? Not sure . . .

It's clear that Jeff created his listing without actually having a copy of Worship IV before him; otherwise, he would have been able to look up no. 965. His question about new tune names is a good one.

I'm afraid this is something forced on GIA by the "hymnal industry," which wants everything done the same way. Hymn tunes must have names, so that all the hymns in a particular hymnal will be listed in the tune index of said hymnal. And so it was some non-Catholic denominational hymnal which first attached a tune name to Schutte's "Here I Am, Lord" or Haugen's "Gather Us In," etc. Those names have spread throughout the industry and GIA felt that it almost had to begin using them because of what is running as a subtext in this entire discussion: being able to determine and compare the musical content of hymnals based upon established tune names.

And so, in the preparation of Worship IV (and, to a lesser extent, Gather 3), composers were asked to come up with tune names for pieces they had written in the past but to which they had not assigned a name. At least the composer would be able to determine the tune name for his or her own creation.