Mixed Gregorian Chant choirs permitted in EF?
  • OlbashOlbash
    Posts: 314
    I'm just about to launch a children's choir (boys and girls) to sing at an EF Mass at my parish church. One parishioner is particularly upset that we are permitting girls to sing, mixed in with the boys no less.

    Has anyone had experience in this area, and could perhaps point me to the most current, relative documents on the matter?
  • WJA
    Posts: 237
    See the following threads:

    http://musicasacra.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=3670&page=1#Item_0

    http://musicasacra.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2266&page=2#Item_28

    My understanding is that, as long as the choir is not "in choir," i.e., in the sanctuary, it's no problem, and hasn't been for a very long time.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,229
    WJA's understanding is spot-on.

    Pius XII resolved the 'mixed-choir' question in late 1955.
  • rogue63
    Posts: 410
    May God bless your work, Olbash. And don't pay any attention to the haters----I attend an FSSP parish, and there are plenty of complainers who just want to ruin someone's day. Build, work, sing, pray, and love, my friend. There will always be someone trying to keep beauty out at any cost; pray for them and move on. Good luck! I'll remember your choir in my prayers.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,211
    Better give Father advance warning about this issue, so he won't be surprised or misled if (when) confused people talk to him about it.
  • Jeffrey MorseJeffrey Morse
    Posts: 203
    I have a full-time position in an EF- Fraternity of St Peter Parish, I have mixed choristers (boys & girls) as well as a women's schola and a men's schola. All three groups end up singing the propers in a given week One of the more 'exotic' members of the parish tried to tell me that girls were not allowed to sing the propers. The superior general of the FSSP as well as documents coming forth from the Ecclesia Dei Commission make it clear that it is perfectly fine for both men and women to sing the chant propers. The Motu Proprio pf Pope Pius X was meant for choirs singing from a true liturgical choir (the sanctuary) and not a loft or another area separated from the sanctuary. So carry on, and best of luck!
  • OlbashOlbash
    Posts: 314
    Thanks, all. @chonak: The pastor is well aware of the situation and quite supportive, not to worry.
  • allsnsct
    Posts: 3
    I think it's very important to contemplate why you want a LM. It is the most beautiful thing on earth, but it must be guarded. If enough men are in the schola, there is really no reason for the woman to sing every part with them. It breaks up the Mass and the female voice is not one to be ignored. We allowed it, had a full blown Hatfield/McCoy going there and pulled back,,,,,way back. If you are just beginning to form your group be careful of what you alllow. Our Parish needed a complete detox from the casualness of the last 40 yrs.
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    'The female voice is not one to be ignored'
    Please elaborate.
    Bluntly, I'll ask- do you mean to say you feel the female voice singing the propers (rather voices in a choir) is a distraction to the point of being an occasion of sin? Why else would anyone want to ignore women (or men or both) singing these prayers?
  • rogue63
    Posts: 410
    from allsnsct:
    If enough men are in the schola, there is really no reason for the woman to sing every part with them.

    Like I said, please ignore the haters and work as hard as you can towards beautifying the Mass. God bless you, Olbash.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    From the point of view of musical quality, the persistent, deeply embarrassing, and not-so-subtle attempt to keep women from singing chant in liturgy might be the single biggest problem that exists in the EF culture as it has emerged in our times. The practice is just incredible insofar as it seems reinforce every stereotype and caricature drawn up by the enemies of the EF.
  • rogue63
    Posts: 410
    Well put. Beauty is the point, not a gender quota. The opposite problem---women opposing men's musical contributions----sadly exists as well.
  • WJA
    Posts: 237
    I don't know if this applies to a children's choir -- I suppose it depends on whether any of the boy's voices have changed -- but having male and female singers means lots of beautiful possibilities. With chant, it means you can do some beautiful antiphonal singing of things like the Gloria and Credo with male v. female voices. And then there's polyphony.
  • Earle
    Posts: 6
    Jeffery, you are absolutely right. In many parishes male singers are few and far between, not good, but reality, and we need to work with the those resources we have.
  • Chrism
    Posts: 870
    Beauty is the point

    That seems reductionist. The ideal expressed by longstanding tradition and by still operative liturgical law is a vested sanctuary choir of clerics and boys, in the manner of the ancient Schola Cantorum of Rome. Everyone agrees on this point.
  • rogue63
    Posts: 410
    from Chrism: "That seems reductionist."

    You can't worship Christ unless you love His Beauty. Are we merely to reduce the faith to a particular set of liturgical arrangments? I dream for the day when every parish has a schola of men and boys---but we're not there yet, and we have to work with the material in front of us. Dreaming about an all-male choir in the sanctuary won't make it happen, but prayer and hard work will.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,473
    Everyone agrees on this point.

    That is clearly false.

    I'm sure you meant what people always mean when they make that kind of statement:
    "Everyone who is right agrees with me."
  • Arthur Connick
    Posts: 496
    "The ideal expressed by longstanding tradition and by still operative liturgical law is a vested sanctuary choir of clerics and boys."

    A more fundamental ideal as expressed in the law and tradition is that the singers be excellent musicians. Too often, the all-male schola, being composed of ideologues and enthusiasts, falls short in this area. (And not just all-male scholae!)
  • rogue63
    Posts: 410
    Let me clarify:

    I think an all-male schola would be a great thing if they are properly trained and sing well. Likewise, an all-female schola, properly trained, would be a wonderful addition to a parish's music program. A mixed schola would be great! The arrangement of sexes is inconsequential next to the paramount goal of beautiful music.
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