Thoughts on organ preludes and postludes in the OF
  • Mark P.
    Posts: 248
    Personally, I think having the postlude/recessional as one thing (rather than a recessional hymn then the postlude) is stylish. To me, it's practical but I know that parish custom oftentimes dictates otherwise.
  • jr3672
    Posts: 4
    I am a volunteer organist up in Quebec, Canada and play preludes before each mass. I usually play hymns that fit the theme of the Sunday. I also play the responsorial psalm a few times. It helps the people to get familiar with the refrain. Feedback from the people is always positive. I believe preludes are very helpful in setting a prayerful mood and preparing the assembly to fully participate in the mass.
  • Interesting discussion that I'm glad got 'bumped' to the top by recent comments.
    I have found the key to be leaving out the recessional hymn. Thus the organ plays (or at times the choir sings) a recessional piece. Because the ministers are still in the sanctuary when you start, the church is quiet - and frankly, people can actually tell that there is some special piece being played or sung. I advise the ministers to be deliberate and dignified in their genuflecting, walking out, etc. This gives you a chance to get through the exposition of your fugue before the congregational exodus starts :)

    If there is a congregational recessional hymn, the postlude usually seems superfluous. Even in the moment needed to throw the hymnal to one side and adjust registration, the music stops and the talking starts. Using an organ/choir piece for the recessional makes for a seamless end to Mass.

    But this discussion raises some interesting fundamental issues. Primarily this: Is there any purpose for the pipe organ in the Catholic liturgy? If it is only there to support singing, does the vast inherited repertoire have any liturgical purpose? Is there any reason to have organ projects, and install monumental instruments at churches?

    I would argue yes to all of the above, but I think we've been so focused on choral music since Vatican II that this other issue has hardly been discussed at all.

    Just a personal note, and one possible argument for preludes/postludes. I know that the steady diet of great prelude and postlude music at my parish growing up was instrumental (ha) in my own decision to pursue organ and church music as a vocation. Preludes that contribute to prayer, and recessionals that accompany the exit procession (and are conducive to an atmosphere of prayer after Mass) seem to me to be an important, if not integral, part of the liturgy.

    There is also the Divine Office - again, preludes and postludes, hymnody with all the trappings, reharmonizations, descants, etc., and hymn or magnificat versets. A fertile ground for the organ repertoire. What if we we went all out for hymnody where it belongs and revitalized the Office as an important part of Catholic life?
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Felicity
  • There is also the Divine Office - again, preludes and postludes, hymnody with all the trappings, reharmonizations, descants, etc., and hymn or magnificat versets. A fertile ground for the organ repertoire. What if we we went all out for hymnody where it belongs and revitalized the Office as an important part of Catholic life?


    Yes! And every organist who accompanies the Magnificat should relish the opportunity created when the censing of the altar, officiant, servers, and people takes longer than the Magnificat, and the organist can do a soaring improvisation leading up to the Gloria Patri...hair-raising! I'm often disappointed when this doesn't work out. :)
    Thanked by 2BruceL CHGiffen
  • One thing to consider that I did not see in this thread. As a young person, I am not sure I would have been drawn to the organ had I heard only hymnody, etc. and not heard the wonderful postludes. The organ students I have are drawn in by pieces like the toccata from Boellman's suite Gothique and there is a great need for new organists. Another thing to consider is that the many hours invested in learning the literature is not wasted, even if only a few people stay to listen to the whole piece - the effort is reflected in all other aspects of our playing, including how we accompany hymnody and chant.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    I tend to play as preludes and postludes, music by French composers written specifically for the mass. You're not of French descent, you say? Your loss, I'm afraid. ;-) During Lent, I don't play anything except accompaniment for singing. By the time Lent is over, I am usually rejoicing at hearing something besides voices.
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I agree, svaillan. The "ludes" (as I call them, pre- post-, and inter-) are some of the things that best bring out the beauty of the organ. You can often suitably accompany a 4 part hymn with a piano, but you sure can't do a bach fugue justice with one.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Ben,

    Actually, Bach wrote a many fugues intended for harpsichord/piano... but I know what you mean.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,152
    Bach's Die Kunst der Fuge, BWV 1080, was surely originally conceived for performance on a harpsichord, even though the original manuscript presents the various fugues in open score (i.e. one stave per voice), which suggests that the composition of this collection was a scholarly adventure. Das Wohltemperierte Klavier, BWV 846–893, was also composed for harpsichord, Bach's intended instrument. Neither of these collections suggests a compositional style that would include organ pedals, which are explicitly scored for Bach's organ works.

    There are those who would argue strenuously that the piano can indeed be a suitable instrument for the performance of both The Art of the Fugue and The Well-tempered Clavier. Although the piano is capable of a wide range of dynamic and on the fly expressive possibilities, it is also capable, in performing such works as these, under the hands of an accomplished and sensitive artist, of exhibiting a very subtle, nuanced grace which renders these works in a most satisfying manner. The most often cited example of this are the celebrated performances at the piano by Glenn Gould:

    Contrapunctus I: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4hs3ctl10Q

    Contrapunctus IV: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV_OBk8B0kU

    Contrapunctus XIV (Fuga a 3 Soggetti): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDSAXtsDB5k
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    I seem to remember hearing that Bach might have encountered an early piano on one of his few journeys - I don't remember the details, but in any case it was just speculation. But yes, he likely had harpsichord in mind, but I believe these are perfectly portable to the piano.
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • Dump the recessional hymn. I either have a Marian Antiphon followed by an organ postlude or just go straight to organ postlude. It doesn't have to a bach fugue. A simple prelude or voluntary is enough.
    Thanked by 1Felicity
  • R J StoveR J Stove
    Posts: 302
    Re SkirpR's comment, James Gaines's Evening in the Palace of Reason does speak of Bach having encountered a Silbermann-made piano in Frederick the Great's collection.
    Thanked by 1SkirpR
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    RJ Stove,
    That was it!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    That story about Bach and Frederick the Great is also recounted in Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    There was the earlier version of the modern piano, the fortepiano, during Bach's lifetime.

    The Silbermann name is mentioned in this article:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortepiano
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 892
    With regards to playing preludes/postludes: is anyone else rattled when some well meaning but oblivious congregant attempts to carry on a conversation with the organist while playing? Or perhaps worst yet, the person who insists on patting me on the back to say good job or goodbye or whatever? I don't want to be ungracious, but I'm tempted to wear a sign on my back that says, "organist at work, please do not touch!"

    As for recessional hymns, I tend to agree that an instrumental recessional makes more sense when few stay to sing the hymn in it's entirety. If people actually wanted to stay and sing a hymn together that would be another story. I experimented with incorporating the optional post-communion hymn, which I thought worked well, but the pastor didn't agree (to either singing the hymn after communion or not having a hymn at the end of Mass) and the practice was effectively banned. Now I play a recessional hymn and sing all the verses, and typically also play a postlude even though it is for an audience of one. I would be ok with people walking out reverently, but the impious chatter that takes place in the sanctuary as if Mass never happened or as if no one was still praying or as if there was no Blessed Sacrament, continues to grate on my nerves.

  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Earl, I always designated the day's cantor to "guard" me and keep such people away until I'm done.
    Thanked by 1expeditus1
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    In the Protestant church where I was DM for years, the choir was on the other side of the chancel. When I took the Catholic DM/organist job 12 years ago, I suddenly found myself face to face with the choir, with only the organ console separating us. It drove me nuts for some time, and every move they made was a distraction. I finally did get used to them, so I now pay little attention to their distractions, and just keep playing.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • I have always felt preludes are important to help set the tone that you have entered sacred space. General try to place something meditative that goes along witht he season.
    We do have the rosary which starts about 1/2 before mass, so when they finish I generally begin a prelude.
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • I have to ask--does anyone really follow to the letter the "requirement" that there is no solo organ music in advent or lent? For example, would it be so inappropriate to play Bachs "Wachet Auf" as a prelude or communion piece on the organ at advent? Or a beautiful Lenten solo organ piece, such as "O Mensch bewein" from Bachs Orgelbuchlein during communion at lent?

    I think these rules in the Catholic Church are, in practice, not observed strictly.
  • As far as Advent goes, in the OF instrumental music isn't prohibited. Attention to the nature of the season is to be given, however.
    Thanked by 1jim19130
  • I do follow it. No instrumental solos really sets apart those somber times of the year. Perhaps a seasonally appropriate postlude would be fine since that's actually not part of the liturgy at all.
  • With regards to playing preludes/postludes: is anyone else rattled when some well meaning but oblivious congregant attempts to carry on a conversation with the organist while playing? Or perhaps worst yet, the person who insists on patting me on the back to say good job or goodbye or whatever? I don't want to be ungracious, but I'm tempted to wear a sign on my back that says, "organist at work, please do not touch!"


    One good argument for the organ/choir loft!
    Thanked by 1francis
  • I should clarify that the only time of year when I think that recessional hymns are a good idea is during Lent, as organ solos are not permitted during the liturgy. Although, there is an argument that since it is after the dismissal, then it isn't during the liturgy and this rule doesn't technically apply.

    I would also certainly encourage a Marian Antiphon after weekday masses, whether it be the seasonal antiphon or an ad libitum such as "Sub Tuum Praesidium"
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    I don't play solo organ works during Lent. During Advent, I drop postludes but play softly during the quieter times of the mass. There is no prohibition on playing during Advent, but flashy postludes don't seem in keeping with the season. The idea that there is anything penitential about Advent is lost on the people. They are ready to sing Christmas carols by Thanksgiving.
  • These rules of organ solos during Mass were published earlier in this discussion:


    81. Accordingly, the playing of the organ, and all other instruments is forbidden for liturgical functions, except Benediction, during the following times:
    a) Advent, from first Vespers of the first Sunday of Advent until None of the Vigil of Christmas;
    b) Lent and Passiontide, from Matins of Ash Wednesday until the hymn Gloria in excelsis Deo in the Solemn Mass of the Easter Vigil;
    c) the September Ember days if the ferial Mass and Office are celebrated;
    d) in all Offices and Masses of the Dead.

    82. Only the organ may be used on the Sundays of Septuagesima, Sexagesima, and Quinquagesima, and on the ferial days following these Sundays.

    83. However, during the seasons, and days just mentioned, the following exceptions to the rule may be made:
    a) the organ may be played, and other instruments used on holy days of obligation, and holidays (except Sundays), on the feasts of the principal local patron saint, the titular day, and the dedication anniversary of the local church, the titular or founder's day of a religious congregation, and on the occasion of some extraordinary solemnity;
    b) the organ only (including the harmonium or reed organ) may be used on the third Sunday of Advent, and the fourth Sunday of Lent, on Thursday of Holy Week during the Mass of Chrism, and during the solemn evening Mass of the Last Supper from the beginning to the end of the hymn Gloria in excelsis Deo;
    c) the organ only may be used at Mass, and Vespers for the sole purpose of supporting the singing. Local Ordinaries may determine more precisely the application of these prohibitions, and permissions according to the approved local or regional customs.


    Musicam Sacram 1967
    Instruction On Music In The Liturgy


    65. In sung or said Masses, the organ, or other instrument legitimately admitted, can be used to accompany the singing of the choir and the people; it can also be played solo at the beginning before the priest reaches the altar, at the Offertory, at the Communion, and at the end of Mass.
    The same rule, with the necessary adaptations, can be applied to other sacred celebrations.

    66. The playing of these same instruments as solos is not permitted in Advent, Lent, during the Sacred Triduum and in the Offices and Masses of the Dead.
    General Instruction of the Roman Missal 2011

    313. ...
    In Advent the use of the organ and other musical instruments should be marked by a moderation suited to the character of this time of year, without expressing in anticipation the full joy of the Nativity of the Lord.
    In Lent the playing of the organ and musical instruments is allowed only in order to support the singing. Exceptions, however, are Laetare Sunday (Fourth Sunday of Lent), Solemnities, and Feasts.



    In response to my post, there seem to be ready disagreements over whether the organ should be played as a solo instrument DURING Mass even if played appropriately soft, (with a piece, as I suggested, like Bach's Wachet Auf during Advent or O Mensch bewein... during Lent).

    As I read these rules literally, they appear to outright forbid the playing of the organ as a solo instrument during Advent and Lent (except one certain Sunday in each) and funerals. Yet, Charles W. indicates that playing the solo organ during Advent "is not forbidden" and that he plays soft music during Mass in Advent. Like him, I suspect most organists in America play soft music during Advent and Lent during offertory and communion, and even before/after Mass and do not think twice about it.

    I just wonder how strictly Catholic organists observe these rules and whether they are ignoring Church teaching if they do otherwise. I was not suggesting that organists play flashy music during these seasons either before, after or during Mass. These kinds of pieces would obviously be out of character for the season. If the literal meaning of these rules is to be accepted, however, such organ solos are prohibited, period, during Advent and Lent. No music during funeral Masses, either. Doesn't this seem unreasonable and out of step with practice in what most churches expect and practice?

    I think that Bach's Wachet Auf would be appropriate during offertory of communion in Advent, for example. What about Bach's rousing Valet will ich dir geben, BWV 736 (the pedal line is "All Glory, Laud and Honor--a classic Palm Sunday hymn widely played on that day) as a prelude on Palm Sunday (during Lent)? Is this forbidden too? And, I cannot imagine a funeral without music, both before and during the service.

    Please clarify.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    I check with the pastor. The pastor is always right. If in doubt, check with the pastor.
    Thanked by 1formeruser
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,469
    I think Jacksons' comments are totally right on. We offer what we do to God first and always primarily. I think this is why so many of us have problems when we have to offer to God things which we know are not as good.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,673
    Another version of EG's sign:

    CAUTION!!!!

    Organist's hands and feet are intricately involved with electrical signals being sent from his/her brain; please do not interrupt, disturb or sever those connections by moving into his field of view, touching any part of his/her person or speaking to him/her during this process or the entire mechanism will fail and result in a tangled mess of notes that you and others will not like. This will then result in the disconnection of every other brain in the church that is being electrified by the organized and well executed stream of musical notes.

    If this does not make sense to you, please sit down and pray for wisdom and understanding until the organist is finshed. Thank you.
  • They're OK with what I do. :-)
    Could I ask, CharlesW, you referenced a collection of French preludes/postludes in an earlier post of yours. Any possibility of pointing me in the right direction for some?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    Le Livre d'orgue de Montréal or the Montreal Organ Book. Use the following link and look at the section Pages liminaires (édition moderne) to get a readable, playable version. Copies of the original manuscript are there as well, but harder to read.

    http://bibnum2.banq.qc.ca/bna/livreorgue/

    I have looked for a paper copy for years, but the only ones I have seen were priced way out of reach. You can print from the above site, but everything is in French, and it is a bit tedious.

    I also have two books, "50 Baroque Fillers for Organ," and "50 More Baroque Fillers for Organ." They are published by Kevin Mayhew and are still in print. They have some nice smaller works that I find useful.

    Keep in mind that these are short works, many no more than a single page.
  • My Preludes are improvisations on the entrance antiphon. Most postludes are improvisation on the communion chant. Our propers and ordinaries are mostly acapella, yet I think the organ style of intonations for these antiphons and ordinaries can be handled prayfully and artistically. All the organ music has a prayerful purpose.
    Thanked by 1GregoryWeber
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 892
    For the record, the organ I was referencing is in a loft, though it is more of a mezzanine or loge than a balcony with seating for about 200.

    As for the real issue of discussion, I'm torn. I personally like seasonally appropriate organ solos, and yet more silence is also needed. Technically, the letter of the law would seem to ban even practicing the organ for 40 days and 40 nights: a needed respite, perhaps, but I don't think I could play very well on Easter if that were so. ;)
  • @CharlesW Thanks for the link to the Montreal Organ Book. It looks like there is a lot of useful stuff in there!

    Please forgive me if this is a "newbie" type question, but how do you tell where to use the pedal?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    Good question. Some of the "ancient" organs either didn't have pedals, or they had short pedal boards. Some literature actually had the tenor voice played on pedals, with 16' stops on the manuals. As one editor of those works has indicated, those organs sounded nothing like modern instruments. I have seen a few you tube videos played on some of the surviving instruments. That can give you an idea of how they sounded. But for my answer to your question, I use pedals when it just sounds right and seems to fit the character of the piece. Also, when my fingers won't reach far enough to pick up those lower notes. In that case, I have to assume the composer's hands were probably not that much larger than mine.
  • In much early organ music, pedal was not used, and if it was, usually only on long bass notes or to act as a drone. You can usually just play the very bottom note in the score with the pedals (as is often done with playing hymns), but there are no hard-and-fast rules.

    I recently played for a confirmation mass where the organ was a single-manual positive of 5 stops and 53 notes. No pedals. I improvised on Picardy for an interlude. I inserted a pencil to hold down the low D note to provide the drone.

    You will find that in days gone by many manuals had narrower keys than they do today and an octave was not quite the reach that it is today. Quite a few also had a "short-octave" bass, which made it quite easy to reach from CC to E or F, which is nigh impossible on a full chromatic keyboard.
  • I recently played for a confirmation mass where the organ was a single-manual positive of 5 stops and 53 notes.


    I play one of those every Saturday evening for Mass in our chapel. Harmonium music tends to work very well.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,218
    It's a marker of the sacred space.


    Not to mention sacred time.
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    I am so jealous of those organists who are able to play preludes and postludes. In my parish, in New York City, the masses are squeezed one behind the other in succession so that the echo of a recessional hymn has barely ceased before an entrance hymn is begun. Count your blessings. I would love to have the option of preluding without causing some sort of disruption.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    The postludes I can do every week. Preludes, almost never. The choir room is located two floors below the organ loft, so we meet in the loft before mass. Getting my older folks up those stairs caused all of them to be winded by the time for mass to begin. Our masses are really too close together, also. I have just given up on preludes because of simple logistics. Interesting thing at our parish. At the scheduled mass time, few are in the congregation. Ten minutes after the mass starts, the place is nearly full. Go figure! LOL.
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    May thanks to Charles W for the link to the Montreal Organ Book. I truly enjoyed playing though the prelude and I'm excited to read through the entire thing.
    Hartley Martin is correct about the keys on older organs. I've encountered a few restored organs in Brooklyn, New York which are very difficult to play. In addition, there is often a 3/4 second delay in using the pedals from when they are pressed to when they sound.
  • When we got a new organ 23 years ago, members of the congregation, who had made contributions for it, began to remain in their pews for the "postlude." They also began to applaud at its conclusion. This disturbed me at first; but then I realized that the "postlude" is not part of the liturgy. It is, essentially, a short organ recital for which people choose to stay. Since virtually everyone stays for it, announcements (formerly made during the Mass) are now deferred until its conclusion. This is an improvement. (I am in an Episcopal Church of the Anglo-Catholic stripe.)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • It is not at all rare that in Episcopal Churches a devoted cadre of organ lovers will gather about the organ or in clumps around the nave to hear the postlude. This is, I think, a joyous conclusion to the solemnities of worship. I do not at all see postludes and preludes as unrelated to the mass. If they are not related thematically or mood-wise they have not been chosen with the care with which they should have been. It seems to be a common attitude amongst some Catholics that 'oh, well, the mass is over with "go in peace"' (and therefore it doesn't matter what one does afterwards); this is incredibly immature and not a little bit silly. Everything done in the House of the Lord is done in his honour, especially if it is immediately attendant upon his worship. There is nothing at all amiss in the pleasure had at hearing the King of Instruments paying homage to the King of kings, whose unique instrument it is, in his very own courts.

    As for those who, sadly, have back to back masses. This is, I think, a travesty which leads to the utterly shameful 'get it over quickly before the next show begins' mentality. It is, embarassingly, piteously, typical only of the Catholic Church, which, of all churches, should have a more spiritually founded concept of public worship. Hurried worship is no worship at all.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW CHGiffen
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,185
    Consider Tournemire's thoughts with regards to Postludes: The Piece terminale is a summary of the liturgical day. Tournemire envisioned people to stay after Mass and pray and listen. The pieces are based on chants used at Mass, hymns at the office and Alleluias and other assorted chants. However, they are not always loud and often end on a quiet note.

    As one of my Parisian friends said," And what planet was he on?"
  • That's exactly how I feel they should be.

    Not noisy theatrical exit music which people are talking over and socializing during. Save that for actual theaters.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    While I would agree with both of you on what postludes should be, they are often not that at all. The pastor has thanked me a few times for playing Widor loudly to stop people from talking while leaving the church.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,185
    But Tournemire was reacting against the loud postludes of Widor, Vierne and others. It was very difficult and still is to pull those pieces off on many a Sunday.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    Yes, it is difficult, and I don't do them every Sunday, just for special masses. I am not a good enough organist to play Widor every week. I would be perfectly happy to play softly as some quietly left and some stayed to pray. What actually happens is that after a sermon on love for one's fellow man, the horde tries to trample each other on the way to the exits.