I'm quite fortunate to work with a very fine organist at my parish, where I teach music. He plays a prelude and postlude for all Masses---including our 8:15 AM school Masses---and of course, we see the kind of behavior you mention----talking, chatting, walking around, etc. I can understand the view that Mass is not a concert, and it certainly can be a deflating experience to watch the crowd run away in a deluge before even the third voice enters the exposition. However, a musical offering is just that---an offering, a sacrifice, a thing of toil---that takes time and dedication. I find that organ preludes are very helpful for some, unnoticed by others, and distracting to a certain few. I can't see a reason for banning them outright (provided the organist isn't jamming away on Inna Gadda Da Vida or other such goofyness), and I think that the potential benefits reaped by some outweigh the non-response of the majority. If some people are helped to enter a state of meditative prayer before Mass by hearing a good interpretation of a musical work of art, how is that aesthetically different from contemplating a stained glass window? Or gazing at the beautiful statuary in a cathedral? Organ preludes and postludes should stay and be further propagated in the OF.

None of the parishes where my schola assists at the EF (or the OF) has this problem, at least the talking/socializing one. In my home parish (one of the above) there is always a Rosary starting an half an hour before Mass, followed by a few minutes of silence, followed by a quiet, meditative prelude, followed by about a minute of silence before the bell. (And there is a note in every bulletin about the expected silence of respect for the Blessed Sacrament in the church, and the silent respect provided by modest dress--and we get some interesting people through as we're just off I-95 en route to the beach...although visitors often call the church later in the week to say that they appreciate the notes about silence and dress.)

We do, however, have people who will walk out during the last hymn, or the moment the priest is gone (he usually waits until the last verse of the hymn before leaving). The organist plays short and normally joyful postludes.

And Father has a 'look' for anyone caught talking out loud in the church :-) It's my chatty 3-year-old friends that get me in trouble...

we're just off I-95 en route to the beach

I know 95 is forever long, but "interesting characters" and "beach" sound like where I'm from.
Where are you located?

Patricia, it seems you are very blessed with wonderful priests there and the people at your home parish. I'm not trying to generalize but it's my experience that when I go to EF Mass, there's no problem of chatting noises before, during and after the Mass, nor with the modest dress. (I have 4 boys, teens and older, and it's not easy for me not to get distracted in OF Masses when the young girls in front of us are constantly playing with their long hair and very short skirts. I reminded my boys after the Mass why I prefer Traditional Mass especially on Sundays, it's not just the Mass itself, but also the people, their attitude at Mass )
I teach my children to stay after the Mass until the postlude is over. When one of my boy went to the organist after the postlude and thanked him for the beautiful music, the organist almost had tears.(even when there is no postlude I tell them to stay for awhile and pray. It's kind of odd that people rush to the door after the Mass to just sit and wait in the car to get out of the jammed parking lot.)

Here's another way to think about it, related to the previous discussion about whether Mass is us singing to ourselves, or singing to God.

Music in a church should acknowledge that there's always an audience: God. The most important audience. If someone walks out during the postlude, the message is that we are STILL offering our best music to God, even if I'm not there personally. Prelude music can communicate that Mass HAS BEEN GOING ON, and continues as we become present in the building.

It's a marker of the sacred space.

What would happen if we acknowledged God's presence even while practicing? And realize that He doesn't demand perfection, but instead is there to help us strive towards it?

Just a thought.

My thoughts, experiences, and convictions about preludes and postludes (hereinafter referred to as 'ludes') are the result of years spent singing and training at Christ Church Cathedral in Houston. Also of years of my own ministry in Catholic, Lutheran and Episcopal churches.

This experience in training and in my own ministry has left me with a paradigm that would seem at present to fit very few Catholic Chruches, but would be quite normal at Episcopal and many High Lutheran ones: the Prelude is concieved of as just that - a carefully chosen piece or improvisation which is at least loosely suited to the theme of the day, acts in such manner as to set the tone for the hymn and/or introit. The congregation experiences this prelude as a meditative or fanfarish (as appropriate) introduction to the hymn/introit and while it is being played use the time for appropriate prayer and preparation for mass. There is no break at all (an announcement of any kind would be considered a bizarre and trashy intrusion) between this prelude and the hymn/introit, which takes off from it. And so goes the rest of the liturgy, unpeppered by directives, instructions, and announcements which shred and distort the ritual text and action. All this is possible because the people have been given service folders ('worhip aids', if you must) which tell them when to sing what hymn and other things they need to know. In this way the mass is experienced as a contiuum of worship, The Mass, rather than as a series of relatively discreet parts each of which is heralded by that (non-canonical) functionary - the announcer. When this continuum comes to an end the people leave, or, in many places, sing a dismissal hymn, finally there is the postlude, chosen for its joyfulness, seriousness, prayerfulness, or whatever, in keeping with the day or season. Most people will not listen to it as they leave, though their spirits may be bouyed by its granduer or touched by its simple beauty. Some, though, will come to stay (even to hover about the organ) and become a rather steady school of appreciative admirers.

It takes considerable time and catechesis to accustom people to this paradigm of decent Catholic worship, but, it is worth the effort it takes.

People should not be talking and visiting during the prelude anyway - they are supposed to be preparing themselves spiritually, and the prelude can act as an aid to setting the day's appropriate frame of mind. (All the more reason to go immediately into the hymn/introit lest the frame of mind be shattered by those thoughtless impious announcers.)

Yes, you should practice your best and play your best: it is for your heavenly Father's worship and his people's aedification (whether they know it or not)
You will find that much of your choir will become attentive, and certain special persons of the congregation likewise.

And! I never sell my audience or congregation short. I assume they are intelligent and savvy, and I give them and God my best. (P.S. - you never know (it's happened to me many times) when there will be a visiting organ professor or colleague, even a scholar from Europe, or a composer......

Crucial is fostering an aura of holiness in God's house with the prelude, and letting it not be broken until that last 'thanks be to God'.
An essential aid in this endeavour is giving the people service folders and teaching them and expecting them to use them.
This worshipful paradigm can and should work in Catholic Churches with proper backing and leadership and catechesis.

So, if you are going to play ludes, play appropriate ones and play them well: any less is disrespectful to the Lord's House.

I play organ weekly for for a traditional Mass, and always do a postlude. (No prelude, because that is prime rehearsal time for the schola.) A handful of people will be left in church by the end; the rest will have left quietly.
I think a postlude has the function of being the last musical commentary on the liturgy, an encouragement for people to take their time or pray before leaving after Mass, etc.
Having a postlude usually adds solemnity to the liturgy; it can potentially differentiate the rank or character of different days and seasons (more significant works for greater feasts, quieter pieces for a simpler weekday Mass)
Sometimes pieces can be chosen which directly relate to the feast or season.
At a less than ideal OF Mass, to start having good postludes would also be the easiest way you could start sneaking in quality music.

Re: whether it is a good use of the organist's time: since I do not take lessons anymore, nor do I give recitals, doing postludes is the only current reason to learn new repertoire. Having to do postludes every week has forced me to learn or brush up a year's (or more) worth of pieces of various difficulty levels. In the process of doing this, I have become a better organist, whether it is at sight-reading, registration, improvisation, etc.

A postlude does not have to be a mammoth work every time. I am usually looking to find something which sounds respectable, but is of medium or easy difficulty level for me. Then every from time to time, I learn a major work, or revive one I have played before. Some organists can also improvise; this is easier to do once you have played a certain number of pieces, I think.

One of my favorite collections of useful pieces: Pachelbel's Magnificat Fugues (close to a hundred ~1-page manuals-only or little pedal fugues in the eight modes) Look them up on imslp.org.

I hope some of this is persuasive!

I think the practice of organ preludes and postludes is common in both forms, so I'll share my current situation even though I now work in an EF parish.
Between congregants praying the rosary before Mass (ending very close to the hour) and rushing to review choir pieces with us, I'm afraid I'm not giving our organist time to play preludes. I would love it if he did and will ask him. Postludes are a bigger offering where I'm at, and I instruct the choirs to sit and pray in silence until the end of the piece. This shows the organist we appreciate his effort, and gives us time to pray without thinking about wha we're singing next. And, honestly, most of us just like hearing the organ

I've said it before, but it bears repeating: Pachelbel has a highly underestimated place in history for his command of counterpoint.

Another interesting point.

At one church that I used to play at, before one of the Masses, the pastor would hear confessions. It was a small church and people would pass by the confessional, or be in pews fairly close to it and there was always the possibility of voices carrying. He asked me to play prelude music during confessions to ensure that nobody could overhear the confessions. Even people who aren't trying may accidentally hear something, but if their ears have some other sound (music) to pick up, they will be drawn to that instead. So while I personally always like to play a prelude, this was a reason to make more effort to do so and to play for a little longer as well.

Someone also mentioned to me before that a loud postlude will keep people from talking in the church after Mass. I've noticed that it has some effect. For instance, one church if I played loud, they'd move outside to talk. If I didn't play a postlude, they'd stay in the church and talk. At another church it didn't matter and they'd just stay inside and talk no matter what (bigger church, less powerful organ). Of course, I never play to drive people out of the church, but if my playing has the effect of keeping the yakometer down a notch then I guess that's a positive side effect.

It's true that most people probably seem like they don't care about the postlude. They just walk out as fast as they can to go to their football game or whatever. But I've also had people stay just to listen. Some people have told me that music helps them to pray after Mass. Others tell me that it really does a wonderful job setting the mood. I think that the music we organists play has more effect on people than we might think by just watching them. Sure, they're filing out in a hurry, but those people aren't stopping to tell us their thoughts either.

And finally, there's the personal part. It's enjoyable to play pieces of music, it helps one stay in practice, it helps the organist develop more skill playing, and it also shows the pastor that you're willing to make that extra effort for your job. You're not just another person who comes to do the minimum and then fly out.

Many leave even before the closing hymn: I've seen so many file down to take communion and then keep on walking out of the church. Others wait until the music begins and scurry out - as much to be among the first out of the parking lot as anything else.

I still recall an item displayed at the beginning of the bulletin/service card many years ago:

We speak to God before the service.
God speaks to us during the service.
We talk to each other after the service.

Patricia, I'm just down the instertate from you in Fayetteville (note to those of you driving up I-95 on a Sunday contemplating stopping in Fayetteville for Mass: keep driving)!!!

My approach to preludes and postludes is nearly word-for-word that of Carl D and M Jackson Osborn. I typically improvise on the introit of the day which, although the chants are unfamiliar to the congregation, they inform me is conducive to prayer and quiet preparation for Mass. Fellow staff members have informed me that the congregation used to be quite chatty before my arrival, so I can only hope that this is a *good thing*. Unfortunately, our clergy here are fond of the aforementioned "trashy intrusions" (usually beginning with "Good morning, church!") before Mass, which usually leave me wanting to reach for a xanax and leaves most of the congregation groaning as we celebrate this and that with thunderous applause for five minutes or so. Postludes range from Dufay played on a light 4' stop to Duruflé depending on the nature of the celebration. I've noticed that the quieter and more meditative selections tend to keep the chatter down, and they tend to help me prepare for the next onslaught of "Look Beyond the Bread you Eat" and "On Eagle's Wings."

it can also be played solo at the beginning before the priest reaches the altar

I interpret this as the processional (after the prelude).

and at the end of Mass.

and that could be the recessional (before the postlude)

I think clearer guidelines would be helpful.

ralph

i often play meditative music for postlude too. its a great way to keep people praying and it sends a pyschological message to the gabby mouths that people still are.

amen, don

I play festive postludes at high solemnities such as Christmas, Easter, Corpus Christi, Pentecost, etc. However, I have a built in trumpet player (and he is fantastic!) which I utilize often for postludes and such... He plays the trumpet, flugelhorn and piccolo trumpet VERY WELL and I am intending on composing a concerto for organ and all three of his instruments as a token of great appreciation of his time and effort to the cause of excellent liturgical music. He even composed a Mass which I need to get out to you all at some point.


"so little time, so much good music" fk

Same here, we mostly observe silence having any rehearsals done 10 to 15 minutes prior to Mass (on major feasts and solemnities we do a very unobtrusive organ improvisation on the Introit Chant or sometimes the hymn) ... then a "gathering" hymn with all stanzas to bring us up to the hour so we can use the SEP for the Introit for the priest ... people get to have hymn one of the four-hymn sandwich and the Introit is also observed (usually they do not miss the hymn at offertory and communion), then a closing hymn, followed by a 30- to 45-second organ improvisation on the closing hymn. Our six morning Masses are back to back so there is little time to present an extended postlude.

I don't play preludes and postludes during Advent. The pastor feels the penitential nature of the season should be emphasized, since it is usually forgotten in most places. Leaving the church in silence is not a bad way to note that Advent is different from Ordinary Time.

Why have a final hymn? - Begin the postlude immediately after the dismissal.

Preludes and Postludes need to support the liturgy.

I'm a supporter of Preludes. However, I'm lucky to be at a church where the choir has a dedicated rehearsal room and it takes 2 minutes for the whole choir to assemble in the church at the end of rehearsals. A prelude needs to be generally quiet and encourage a prayerful, meditative atmosphere. The organists are very clever people who manage to improve the prelude using the introit as inspiration. They often improvist postludes too! I was rather impressed by an improvisation on "We Three Kings" in 5/4 time after Epiphany Sunday mass! It gave that impression of travelling across the desert on a camel, lilting from side to side.

Of course, during Lent and Advent there should be no postlude, or if there is, then it should be something also quiet, reflecting on the penetent nature of the liturgical season. Of course, on major feasts, the postludes can be grand pieces.

I think that preludes and postludes also serve to help discourage idle chattering inside the church immediately before and after mass, which is something of a problem in many churches today.

There are stories of when he would finish the piece terminale there was no one in church. Happens to me sometimes also.

I think that's kind of sad, actually.

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

I stay seated during the postlude; but as an organist I'm not really representative.

Don't play for people... play only for God... always... the people just happen to be there because they are only there for him too. Any "crossover" is then just a blessing in disguise.

In the past few months I have found that improvised quiet music based on the introit chant to be quite useful. I generally take the SEP Introit and previously would have written in some chord suggestions for basing the improvisation. I'm not good enough to make it all up on the spot!

It also helps give the choir a heads up on what pitch the incipit is going to be in!

I find that the quiet organ playing in the few minutes before mass starts is quite useful in that it: 1- Discourages people from chatter just before mass starts. 2- Indicates to the congregation that mass is due to start in a few moments. 3- Tends to encourage people to quietly find a pew and settle in. 4- Helps cover the sound of people scurrying in.

I tend to reserve Recessional Hymns for Lent and Advent, or if I have been playing at a mass with a large congregation, followed immediately by a suitable postlude.

>> I stay seated during the postlude; but as an organist I'm not really representative.

Last saturday I had a visitor coming up very quietly to the organ loft, seating down and listen to the postlude. However he was another organist too, so it's not that representative.

It is not unusual for my to complete my postlude to find only one or two members of the congregation still in the chapel, praying. My most faithful listener is locked away in a little box at the other end of the room most of the time.