Is instrumental offertory allowed?
  • lmassery
    Posts: 421
    Just want to clarify something: since the GIRM lists another "suitable song" as the last option for introit, offertory, and communion, that excludes instrumental only works, correct? For example, an organ piece or a handbell choir piece during offertory.
  • The GIRM is referring to a song as a chant or sung text.
    However, in the ordinary form there is the absence of the offertory antiphon in the missal yet it still exists in the graduale.
    I suppose in the nearly anything goes ordinary form it is difficult to say whether there is truly any legislation regarding a purely
    instrumental offertory, since the Mass itself could be sung or not sung.
    The preferred approach in your case, would be to chant the offertory antiphon (RG, SEP, Simplex or Flowing Waters) then allow an
    instrumental (organ or otherwise) to accompany the rest of the liturgical action.
  • I suppose in the nearly anything goes ordinary form it is difficult to say ...


    Perhaps you can tell us whether it would be allowed in the low Mass of the TLM?
  • The new GIRM is included below. Taken all together, ICEL and the Bishops collectively want to emphasize the text, chant as the preferred way of emphasizing that, and congregational participation. Since even the word "song" has now been eliminated, it would seem that an instrumental offertory is counter to the new instructions.

    As the Latin essentially has a blank slate for Episcopal Conferences to fill (and therefore there is no appeal to the Latin text from the English text), this is what they want. However, ultimately, it comes down to what your Bishop allows (most likely, not through active legislation) and even more your pastor. But here is what the bishops say...

    37. Finally, among other formulas:
    a) Some constitute an independent rite or act, such as the Gloria in excelsis (Glory to God in the highest), the Responsorial Psalm, the Alleluia and Verse before the Gospel, the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy), the Memorial Acclamation, and the chant after Communion;
    b) Others, on the other hand, accompany some other rite, such as the chants at the Entrance, at the Offertory, at the fraction (Agnus Dei, Lamb of God) and at Communion.

    These are the norms for the Entrance, which the GIRM says are the same as for the Offertory:
    48. This chant is sung alternately by the choir and the people or similarly by a cantor and the people, or entirely by the people, or by the choir alone. In the Dioceses of the United States of America, there are four options for the Entrance Chant: (1) the antiphon from the Missal or the antiphon with its Psalm from the Graduale Romanum, as set to music there or in another setting; (2) the antiphon and Psalm of the Graduale Simplex for the liturgical time; (3) a chant from another collection of Psalms and antiphons, approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop, including Psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms; (4) another liturgical chant that is suited to the sacred action, the day, or the time of year, similarly approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop.
  • amindthatuits:

    If you look further down in the new GIRM, you will find this interesting passage at the end of No. 142:

    "If, however, there is no Offertory Chant and the organ is not played, in the presentation of the bread and wine the Priest may say the formulas of blessing aloud and the people acclaim, Blessed be God for ever."

    Therefore, the GIRM does leave the possibility for the organ to be played, provided that we are not in the Lenten season.
  • Mr. Thompson,

    Respectfully sir, I have been to the Novus Ordo Mass for all 29 1/2 years of my life. I can say now, without hesitation, that I have NO DOUBT why people desire the TLM - it's in what "we've done AND in what we've failed to do" all of these years. I mean, why do we have to have an array of folks desiring to understand what these things mean? Shouldn't we be allowed to expect that the text will clarify and handle almost every situation? The ambiguity left, usually to coddle folks who will knowingly be anti-authority anyway, is disheartning and silly. The same reason probably covers why we have gotten rid of Holy Days of Obligation and why we have gotten rid of a mandatory Friday abstinance from meat. "People won't do it, anyway." So let's make our documents as loose as possible, knowing that people won't give one flip about 'em anyway.

    Some of these folks who write these things should come teach, like me, in an elementary classroom. With rules this ambiguous and utterly ungrounded, their classrooms would resemble a zoo. I can see the look on the kids' faces, "What's he saying? I don't get it..."
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,965
    Organ offertories are a lifesaver when the choir didn't practice that week.
  • JIF: since the musical rubrics of the EF are so clear and do not contain any "disheartening" ambiguity "to coddle folks who will knowingly be anti-authority anyway," perhaps you can apprise us of whether, and under what conditions, instrumental music at the Offertory was permitted. After all, we wouldn't want a hermeneutic of rupture between what was allowed in 1958 and what is allowed today, would we?
  • Mr. Thompson,

    I am not here accusing you of that; if you look at the tone of all of my posts, I do not work that way. However, I was simply coming to the defense of those who say that a lot of innovations not in the heart of the Church have come to bear because the bishops instructions and their willingness to follow through on them have often been so willy-nilly that they are almost pointless.

    I don't know, I grew up at a parish that ONLY did organ offertories, except for the one choral Mass of the weekend (1/4) singing a sung piece, and it was always an Anthem or Motet, never a hymn or proper chant.

    Here's the point: I experienced A. Somebody's asking if A is ever possible, much less the norm. Nobody on here can interpret just what the Bishops mean; "Does it forbid A, reccomend A, permit A, or push A?" If the folks on here can't figure it out, what makes anyone think anybody will really figure out? That begs the question, "If the statement is so un-clear, why even make the statement?

    Teachers have to be clear on expectations and rules, not to lord it over their students, but to offer them guidance and direction. That is true, pastoral love, and what is sometimes missing in our modern church, and just because I can't/won't prove some TLM tidbit doesn't change the fact that the TLM was much more clear on a great deal, many more things.
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    It's a similar situation to a book on grammar: should it be DEscriptive or PROscriptive? In other words, should it tell you how you actually DO speak, or how you SHOULD speak?

    So many Church documents tend to be descriptive, possibly in the hope of not excluding existing practices. Most of us are tired of this, and want proscriptive documents.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,466
    This:

    It's a similar situation to a book on grammar: should it be DEscriptive or PROscriptive? In other words, should it tell you how you actually DO speak, or how you SHOULD speak?

    So many Church documents tend to be descriptive, possibly in the hope of not excluding existing practices. Most of us are tired of this, and want proscriptive documents.

    Is not just another thread. That could take up a whole message board.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,084
    You could do a brief vocal offertory, and then organ music. But it seems to me that "organ offertory" is a logical impossibility, given that organs cannot enunciate text. (Yes there are "organ masses"; they're a liturgical abuse.)
  • JQ,
    After the concluding EF Mass at the NOLA Chant Intensive this last January, Benediction featured a french composer's TE DEUM that had the versicles sung in alternatim with the organ interpolating (improvisation?/interlude?) the following versicle instrumentally. Apparently that medium was fashioned into tradition in the 19c. How say ye upon that?
    C
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,084
    Yes, I know there's a long tradition of alternatim settings. Maybe it's the unreconstructed Lutheran talking, but the Word is the word. If the text is very familiar and there's a clear tune (e.g., alternations in the Kyrie), it's not so bad, because the congregation will play back the words in their heads. And maybe it doesn't go all the way to illicit...but it's still not Best Practices.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,965
    I think those alternations were fine and served a legitimate purpose when written. The problem is unreconstructed Lutheranism. We Catholics have had to deal with that for far too long.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,084
    LOL! My Lutheran liturgical experience begins and ends with the 1940 hymnal, but I thought the Lutherans had been buying all the bad liturgical ideas pioneered by Catholics post V2.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,965
    You must not have been Missouri Synod! They tell me they are more orthodox and righteous than the local ELCAs.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,084
    I was SO Misery Synod, but that was pre-1973...as my sainted grandmother said of ELCA, "Why, if they believe that, they aren't even Chris-tee-an!" My last experience of Lutheran liturgy was ELCA though...after trying to get the congregation to sing a very boring African hymn, the pastor said, "We'll have to work on that one." Hint: when Lutherans don't sing, there's something seriously wrong.
  • Benedictgal:

    I had not noticed this thread had any movement on it for a while, and then it sprang to life. Thank you for pointing that out. That's why I put all my questions abou the GIRM out there, so people can make helpful points, and that was.

    So, yup, sounds like an organ is a-ok. If you have a cithara lying around, perhaps you can't psallite with it, but an organ, yes.

    Thanks for pointing that out.

    Kenneth
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,228
    perhaps you can apprise us of whether, and under what conditions, instrumental music at the Offertory was permitted.

    Actually, it was quite common for an organist to play during the EF Offertory, and my memory of that goes back to the early 1950's. For a Missa Cantata, the schola would sing the Offertory verse first (of course) and if the choir sang a voluntary, the organ usually did not play afterwards. For a LOW Mass, however, instrumental (organ) music was usually played through the saying of the prayers. Matter of fact, there are hundreds (or maybe thousands) of organ pieces entitled "Offertorium." There's a reason for that.

    The only rule was that the music should not make the priest stand around and wait for the music to stop.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,965
    "The only rule was that the music should not make the priest stand around and wait for the music to stop."

    That's one rule that still hasn't changed. LOL.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I completely agree with Benedictgal.

    Maybe the world IS coming to an end ...
  • @PaixGioaAmor

    I am watching the movie 2012 as we speak!! :)

    @amindthatsuits

    Thank you!