Antiphonale Romanum II and Mundelein Psalter
  • bgeorge77
    Posts: 190
    I have Fr Weber's Office of Compline book, where the English side's tones were chosen so that they more-or-less matched to the Latin tones for the antiphons.

    So I was wondering, do the tones of the Mundelein Psalter match at all to the tones of the Antiphonale Romanum II? (Or, since MP came out before ARii, do the MP tones match to whatever was at-the-time the official really real deal Antiphonale for the LotH?)

    Now that I think about it... do the antiphons even match?

    In concrete: If a parish wanted to sing, say, Vespers, with the antiphons in Latin and the Psalms in English, would they have to start from scratch? Or would the MP+ARii work?
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    You question seems to be whether the MP Latin matches the ARii Latin. I don't know but your idea of MP+ARii seems reasonable. The mode is the same in any case, surely.
  • Aristotle EsguerraAristotle Esguerra
    Posts: 1,187
    Speaking from experience, I can say that the modes of the Mundelein Psalter do not match those of the Antiphonale Romanum II.

    In The Mundelein Psalter, the psalmody of the four-week psalter alternates, on a weekly basis, between two different psalm-tone sets:

    - Psalm/Canticle I: 8g and 8a
    - Psalm/Canticle II: 2a and 2d
    - Psalm/Canticle III: 5a and 5c
    - Canticle of Mary: 1f and 7d

    The Antiphonale Romanum is different, just by looking at Sunday Vespers II of Week I (pp. 454ff):

    - Psalm/Canticle I: 1a2
    - Psalm/Canticle II: D (a more ancient psalm tone)
    - Psalm/Canticle III: can best be classified as Mode 6
    - Canticle of Mary: varies with the Sunday

    If you wanted to have the English-language psalmody match the modes of the antiphons in the AR, you would need to start from scratch.

    And as far as the matching of antiphons goes, the answer is "Yes, but not always."
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    I hate to trouble anyone, but could someone please post Psalm Tone D?
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 1,000
    I only have tone D d as pdf at the time, but there are also endings on g and f.
    tonusDd.pdf
    129K
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    I've been working (casually and slowly) on a project to point the Psalms to the various Gregorion modes, and perhaps ultimately include the Latin antiphons from the AR2 and Ordo Cantus Officii (for ferias). Would there be any interest in this?

    --Rich
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 1,000
    @SkirpR: I'm currently working on the antiphons and responsories for weekdays according to the OCO. In the pace I'm doing these (I don't have much time to spend on this project), I'll have the antiphons ready in four weeks. Sunday Lauds and Vespers, and Compline have already been done (see www.transitofvenus.nl/LiturgiaHorarum/).

    If you have the pointed psalms (Nova Vulgata, I presume) ready, I'm quite interested!

    Steven
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    Thanks!
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    @ van Roode: you don't know how happy I am from reading what you wrote!!!
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    @smvanroode - That's is really great news! But I was referring to pointing English psalms - either the Grail (as is still used in the current US Liturgy of the Hours) or the Revised Grail (since that seems where it's headed) - or both (for completeness sake).

    I have some of the original Grail pointed in English - mostly for Sunday Vespers. The reason I've been moving so slowly is that (at least for English) I think in order to be consistent you have to point one psalm in all the modes before you move on. If you only point it for the mode you need for a given antiphon, you may encounter a problem in another mode (when, for example you have a proper antiphon) and you realize you're being inconsistent with choices about versification and stress patterns.

    I envision an edition with all antiphons in Latin and hymns, psalms, readings, short responsories, and orations in English - but sung to their proper Gregorian tones.

    Mundelein Psalter is great, and Fr. Weber's tones are effective, but I miss the authentic tones when singing in English. I know it bothers some people, but it has never bothered me - the tones are too beautiful. It's difficult to sing English to them "as you go," but I don't think it's so difficult if you've already decided the pointing ahead of time.
  • joerg
    Posts: 137
    I have written a small program for pointing psalms in Latin and German.
    The program produces TeX output from unaccented psalm text, psalm tone and
    psalm difference.
    So far I've only done those psalms which I needed for my private antiphoner.
    But I could easily do all psalms in all modes with all differences.
    The only difficulty is that verse numbers in the Bible (both Neo-Vulgata and the
    German Einheitsübersetzung) are different from those in the breviary
    (both Liturgia Horarum and German Stundenbuch). So there would have to be a manual
    preparatory step of dividing psalm verses. Everything else would run
    automatically.
    I use the German style of pointing psalms (with underlines and underbrackets,
    as in the attached pdf), but I think I could easily switch to Roman style
    (with boldface and italic characters) if this is preferred.
    I think I could do English as well, if I had a machine readable version
    of the psalter (not sure about the copyright status). Accentuation rules for
    German and English probably are not so different.
    Dom_1_V1.pdf
    178K
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