Dominator Deus Mass XV
  • davidkassler
    Posts: 14
    Hello,

    What background information can anyone provide me about the Dominator Deus Mass XV?
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    What kind of information do you want? It was sung on simple feasts, which is a commemoration since 1955, and on ferial days during Christmas time.
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    So, a follow-up question on this. (I'm good for those.) Of the eighteen settings of the Ordinary in the Gregorian Missal, nine have specified usage:
    I — Easter
    IV — Feasts of Apostles
    VIII — Feasts of Ordinary Time (per "Vatican norms" — not in the GM)
    IX — Marian feasts and solemnities (also Sundays of Christmas per Vatican norms)
    X — Marian feasts and memorials
    XI — Sundays in Ordinary Time
    XVI — Weekdays in Ordinary Time
    XVII — Sundays in Advent and Lent
    XVIII — Weekdays in Advent and Lent, and Requiem Mass
    So… that still leaves nine settings (II, III, V, VI, VII, XII, XIII, XIV, XV) seemingly "unaccounted for." Or make that eight settings, given what Protasius mentioned about XV. So what about the others?

    My real question is this: Is it too much of a stretch to think that the "Ordinary Sundays" heading on XI could "carry over" to XII through XV? That is, would XII through XV (or at least through XIV) also be appropriate for Sundays in Ordinary Time?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    A reminder about those specified usages: for Sunday and festal Masses, they're recommendations, but not binding: a note on p. 78 of the Liber Usualis says that it's OK to interchange pieces and also use the "ad libitum" chants in the following pages.
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Understood, and thank you, Richard. (I just took a look at that note myself… I appreciate the reference.) I'm still curious about those other settings of the Ordinary, though. Historically and/or in modern usage, where do they best "belong"?

    Or do they even "belong" at all? Of the unaccounted ones I mentioned, I see that II, III, V, VI, VII, and XIV aren't included in the Parish Book of Chant. Of course, I understand that the PBC isn't exactly a historical reference, but I'm guessing that their exclusion suggests that they have fallen by the wayside, by and large.

    XII, XIII, and XV are included, though — and it's those that I'm most curious about.
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    From Dom Saulnier, Gregorian chant: A Guide:

    In the modern books these chants have been grouped in order to form “Masses”, that is, collections each of which contains a Kyrie, a Gloria, a Sanctus and an Agnus Dei. Thus, there is a “Mass I” for the Easter season, a “Mass IV” for feasts of the apostles, a “Mass XI” for Sundays in Ordinary time, etc. However, we should not be deceived by these groupings. They date only from the Gregorian restoration of the nineteenth century, and only rarely do they reflect historic truth. In reality, the Kyriale constitutes a composite repertoire, of regional origin. The chants for the Ordinary of the Mass were composed in every region, and at the different times. The number of these compositions is much greater than those passed down to us in the Vatican edition. Nonetheless, the choices made for the Vatican edition are excellent. On the whole, these chants are popular in style. There are some, very simple in nature, that may be very ancient. Unfortunately, the tradition for the chants of the Ordinary is not as reliable as it is for the chants of the Proper, and, thus, we encounter numerous local variants. In several cases the influence of the schola is felt, which resulted in pieces in a more highly elaborated style.


    You can get more info on the nature and history of some of the Ordinaries on pp. 87-101 of his book, which you can download from CMAA here.

    Jon
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    From the same, p. 94:
    Gloria XV has also kept the structure of a cantillation on a (mother-mode of D), in the manner of a very simple psalmodic schema (intonation - tenor - mediant - final), adjusted when the text is too short. The modal evolution is here more advanced (cadences descending a fourth), and the final amen is again adventitious.
  • lautzef
    Posts: 69
    Just a historical aside - the Gloria of Mass XV has been thought by some scholars to be a rare survival from the Gallican repertory of chant that was widespread in western Europe before Gregorian chant and before the invention of notation. To my untrained ear, it doesn't sound like the other chant pieces thought to be survivals of Gallican chant, but what do I know. It is a beautiful Gloria.

    At Immaculate Conception in Cleveland we do not always stick slavishly to the recommendations in the Liber but vary the groupings as per Dom Saulnier. (Of course, as he says, the recommendations are excellent.) We also have other chant settings of the ordinary that we have collected from here and there, mostly from facsimiles of medieval manuscripts. Transcription can take some time, but it's worth it. There are even some chant settings composed in the 17th century that we use on occasion (Henri du Mont comes to mind), and we have sung them in a Gregorian style, as well as having done them a couple times as chant sur le livre in their intended style. I think people can expand their horizons to great benefit - there is still so much music out there, and we are so lucky to have had generations of scholars who brought it out of the shadows. Go to the nearest music library and explore!
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Absolutely fantastic… thank you, jpal, lautzef, and everyone!
  • Hugh
    Posts: 198
    We've been singing Mass XV for the past couple of months. I must say, the congregation really get into it. The Gloria is crisp, yet pungent. (We sing it antiphonally: cantors, all, cantors all, etc)
    The Agnus Dei Part II has that beautiful melisma on miseREre.

    I think it's an ideal mass to introduce congregations to.
  • davidkassler
    Posts: 14
    Thank you very much for your marvelous imput! I have written a complete setting of this mass and can e-mail a pdf to anyone who wants it. It is set for chamber orchestra and chamber choir and uses the Mass literally. Some of your answers are very scholarly and I really like the link to the text that Jon gave me. It has not had a performance. If anyone had a choir and small orchestra that would perform it I would gladly fly to wherever you are to hear it, conduct it, or even play the euphonium parts. I am reached at tedok2@yahoo.com if you would like a copy or have any more information about Dominator Deus XV.

    Thanks again!
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Inspired in part by this thread, I've been looking over the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei from Mass XV, which I haven't known previously. Very nice!
  • davidkassler
    Posts: 14
    Thank you so much!
  • davidkassler
    Posts: 14
    I tried uploading the guts of my thesis, but it says the file is too big. It is a pdf. file.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    (See my suggestions on the other thread for places where you can store the PDF for public viewing.)
  • davidkassler
    Posts: 14
    Thanks....now I have to try my hand at that technology. I do need to make my compositions as available as possible to try to get them performed.
  • davidkassler
    Posts: 14
    I have posted a copy of my setting for chamber orchestra and chamber choir this entire Mass. Please let me know if you would like a copy of the score, piano vocal score and mp3's sent to you. The mp3's are just the finale playback, but not too bad except the Latin is all "ahhhhhhh"
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    I'm closing this thread to further comments since there is another thread on the same topic at
    http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/7041/availablity-of-my-setting-of-mass-xv-dominator-deus
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