Why I avoid PT.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Where else can you read:

    "Jeffrey is so attached to his pro-propers, anti-strophic hymns agenda that he sees it, even when it isn’t there."
  • Adam Schwend
    Posts: 203
    I feel like I'm fairly well "in the know" concerning Sacred Music...but maybe I'm wrong....I have no clue what "PT" is.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,184
    The blog Pray Tell, run by Fr. Anthony Ruff.
  • Adam Schwend
    Posts: 203
    Ahhhhh.....

    Yes, he has gotten a bit cranky lately.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    As Fr. Ruff is a somewhat frequent contributor to this board, I might suggest it is inappropriate to talk about him as if he weren't here. I can think of a lot of other forum-ites who are often cranky, and I don't think there have been any threads devoted to their shortcomings.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Oh shut up, Adam. (Just kidding.)
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    I was just composing a post called "The Trouble with Adam Wood" but after Kathy's smack down, I've taken pity on you.

    (Actually, Adam has done amazing work with his reviews - which have received far too little attention.)
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    The trouble with Adam Wood is that not enough people read his blog.
    Also, he's a shameless self promoter who links to himself every chance he gets.
    Thanked by 1E_A_Fulhorst
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    PT (physical training) is Army lingo for calisthenics. I avoid that strenuously, so to speak. :-)
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    And given the incredulous turn of Screwtape over there of late, I'd add (and actually have) the term FUBAR in terms of editorial content and management. Taking a hiatus....won't be missed, I'm sure. That may sound and be "cranky," but it sure as heck isn't diabolical.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,046
    Well, see, now you've got my curiosity up; I may have to start reading. Was that the intent?
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 756
    I'm no fan of Fr. Ruff when he puts on his editorial hat at Pray, Tell (he and it are a considerable dissapointment), but I think anyone who finds that quote a problem should chill - it's fair banter, tho' maybe it does approach taking unfair advantage of a friend he knows won't bite back.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Oh it never even occurred to me to be upset by that comment from Fr. Ruff. I think he understands, as I do, that a mention this prominent is a fantastic courtesy and compliment. I was very grateful for the post.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Adam, you are absolutely right, let me fix this:



    Fr. Ruff, looks like you've gotten a bit cranky lately.


    (I am only doing this because I am sure that he will smile)

    Someone that does not have opinions that conflict with others is not a very interesting person. Otherwise It's like looking in a mirror!
  • catholiccomposer
    Posts: 21
    I'll repost here what I did over there:

    "I have to say that I am very disappointed in many of the comments I've read here, from those on both sides of the argument. It seems that there is a lot of mud-slinging going on, and not a lot of actual argument. Will any of us ever convince someone of our point without charity? Please, for the sake of the Church, start to be more civil in your comments. Even if you do not intend to do harm by way of them, the potential for scandal is incredible. If you can't make your point without biting sarcasm, find a different way of saying it. Can we stop being defensive and at least take time to consider the other point of view? After all, if we're really speaking Truth, it will hold up to even our own scrutinies. Pray for each other and yourselves (and me!), but in the way of the tax collector rather than the pharisee."

    I think that everyone involved in liturgical debates has the chance to appear extremely uncharitable (and most of us do it quite frequently). Even in jest, though, this can poison our minds (and, more importantly, the minds of others through scandal). I saw it in both camps (among whom are members of this forum) on the post about Msgr. Wadsworth's review, and I've seen it from both camps in everyday life, as well. We will NEVER champion the reform of the reform or convince people through vitriol, polemics, and sarcasm. This is a deeply distressing trend in today's liturgical culture.
  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    I seem to have been banned from posting on PT because I disagree with a lot of Fr. Ruff's assertions on the revised translation and I am always defending the Holy See.
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 756
    Heap those coals, Jeffrey :-)
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    The online environment breeds a snarkiness that isn't present in face-to-face exchange. Sad. (Let me add, a snarkiness to which I have succumbed as well)
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Posting/comboxing on one liturgical blog about another liturgical blog (all things being equal, no snark intended there) seems also rather a vanity and waste of time. See, I just wasted thirty seconds I could have used praying the LOH.
    PS to Adam T., as I just checked the body count over there in the sycophantavacantist combox thread, you've since noticed how your appeal, as well as those of many of us, are not even noticed by the mob and trounced like Kevin Bacon's ROTC character at the end of the film "Animal House" by the mob of lemmings, er, townsfolk of Faber. I, for one, give you a big huzzah for trying.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    I think we should start another thread where we all talk about how Noel likes to start really obnoxious and completely unnecessary threads, and talk about him as if he weren't here.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Wow, Marajoy, that's a step way too far.

    Whether or not a thread like this is "necessary" is certainly debatable. However, I doubt this sort of thing would ever happen, if That Other Forum had even-handed editorial policies.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Noel by any other name, would still be Noel. You got to love him.

    As for PT, I make it through every day without reading it, and never notice the loss. Perhaps blog readers/writers have too much time on their hands.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    benedictgal

    You can't defend the Holy See!!!! All of hell will send its demons to take
    you out! That is, unless, you are a very good friend of God's Mother... then hell will run from you with all the power in their chicken-boned little legs.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    I'm not here?

    Let's go back to the beginning:

    "Jeffrey is so attached to his pro-propers, anti-strophic hymns agenda that he sees it, even when it isn’t there."

    Is Jeffrey against strophic hymns?

    WIKI:
    "A strophe forms the first part of the ode in Ancient Greek tragedy, followed by the antistrophe and epode. In its original Greek setting, "strophe, antistrophe and epode were a kind of stanza framed only for the music," as John Milton wrote in the preface to Samson Agonistes, with the strophe chanted by a Greek chorus as it moved from right to left across the skênê."

    Is Jeffrey against hymns that are framed for the music not for the text?

    Are strophic hymns as bad or even worse than paraphrased psalms?

    Restoration of the LOH puts hymns back where they belong and gives them the pride of place that they deserve.

    It is time to abandon the Mass as being the universal liturgy to serve all functions and give its prominence back to it and put other devotions and the LOH back into usage.

    It's not what Jeffrey's against. It's all about what he is for.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    Well, if you wanted to have a conversation about Jeffrey and strophic hymns, then why wouldn't you just say that in the first place, rather than dredging up animosity towards another blog in the very title of your post?!
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    The person running that blog made the statement. I found it strange.

    I merely asked a question. I didn't make any statements that were animostic. animanistic. Ani....


    A guy named Pete gets a job as a switchman with the railroad and undergoes weeks of training.

    The supervisor then takes him into the switch booth to test his readiness. The following exchange takes place:

    Supervisor: "Imagine you were sitting here alone and you learned there was a train coming from the North on that track, and another coming from the South on the same track. What would you do?"

    Pete: "I'd throw this switch right here and put one train on the other track."

    Supervisor: And what if that switch didn't work?"

    Pete: "I'd go down to the track and throw that big switchlever there, putting one train on the other track."

    Supervisor: "And what if that switchlever didn't work?"

    Pete: "Then I'd come back here and call the dispatcher to stop both trains."

    Supervisor: "And what if the phone didn't work?"

    Pete: "Then I'd go to that gas station across the street and use their phone."

    Supervisor: "And what if their phone didn't work?"

    Pete: "Then I'd go get Uncle Joe."

    Supervisor: "Uncle Joe??? What would he do?"

    Pete: "Nothing, but he ain't never seen no train wreck before."


    I apologize for the train wreck. But, just like Pete, it wasn't my fault.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Privately, I have been put in my place.

    Who took my chair?
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Come to think of it, I love strophic hymns. The PBC is full of them, e.g. Jesu Dulcis Memoria etc.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Joy,
    There is a great amount of actual context that underlies this fairly small bit of bandwidth that us liturgy-music geeks absorb from bouncing from this blog Lilly pad to another. It's almost like some code built into our DNA. So, even if you're of the same species of frog, but you've been away from your native pond for a while, you might have to reaquaint yourself to any new stimuli, positive and negative that transpired while you were exploring.
    I know from keeping up with your "pond" you're transitioning yourself. A lot of "stuff" has gone on among those who are familiar with codes of this forum and the other that has proven to be, if nothing else, detrimental to the "lattice of coincidence" we share with our fellows on the side of the pond, enough so to cause us to wonder if we're still the same species.
    It's drama, it's needless and pointless, but it's of real concern and Noel just basically pointed out that our kin across the pond are saying we aren't green no mo', tho we know darn well we are green. There's a moral to all this....
    It ain't easy being green.
    Show of hands who knew that was coming way ahead?
    Ribbet!
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    Jeffrey, your strophic hymn animus is all too well-known.
    Are you not on public record for despising
    Adoro te devote
    Veni, Creator Spiritus
    Ave Maris stella
    Crux fidelis
    etc...
    Noel, PT is like the lovely lemon tree for many of us here, myself included.
    I'd prefer to take my sour pill in very small doses.
    Still, well, with respect, I don't see much purpose in this thread. Next?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Somehow I suspect that Jeffrey is perfectly capable of singing Holy, Holy, Holy with quite a bit of gusto, even at Mass. Although it would be difficult to fit in a hymn like that, if propers are given their due. Maybe at the recessional, I dunno.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Are you not on public record for despising....this gives me a clue to who has stolen my chair.

    It's bow-tied Mr. X in the Sacristy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSS9PnU6T8s

    My new shoes arrived!

    image

    These are formal wear...
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Hey, aren't those pirated shoes? Where's your respect for intellectual property :)
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Crocs has pulled of out financial quicksand by moving production to China...:<(<br />
    My usual plain green pair is on study leave, attempting to complete the course and become certified in Reflexology. You have to have respect for shoes that want to better themselves.

    image
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    With all this banter(?) back and forth, I thought the shoe would soon be on the other foot ... but I got that wrong: The foot is in the other shoe!
  • Mark P.
    Posts: 248
    OMG! The interaction at PT is totally out-of-control. Nobody seems to be moderating. When I posted on PT their own commenting guidelines (to try to encourage a more civil tone), the number one offender posted the Gettysburg address (!). After the whole Msgr. Wadsworth/sedevacantist episode, things seem to have gone from bad to worse.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    There appear to be a lot of catholics inside the church who hate the church. The salvation someday may be due to catholics outside of the church who love the church.
  • Mark P.
    Posts: 248
    My posting of the PT commenting guidelines was removed. The Gettysburg address remains. I think we can safely say that all pretense at fairness and balance has now vanished from that blog, which is beginning to resemble a liturgical version of the National Catholic Reporter.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Mark,
    My sympathies, truly.
    But we cannot address the issues both of content and editorial mgmt. here in MSF.
    If we believe in humility and justice, we must witness to that where such seems not to be welcomed or appreciated. And we absorb the injury and let our peaceful reaction speak of the gospel. But we must not be silent in the face of chaos and destruction where it thrives.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Sorry, Mark. That's what happens, unfortunately.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,046
    Sedevacantists at PT? Pray tell! ("Sedevacantist" = $50 word for "Protestant")
    Mark P.: reading crazy blogs so I don't have to. :-)
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Very interesting turn worth noting here...
    AWR posted about NPM, and two of the usual suspects immediately low-jacked the thread with their Lucy and Ethyl hijinks.
    I wished AWR/NPM well after them.
    Their posts have subsequently disappeared!
    Keep HOPE alive!
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 944
    Everyone seems to need a refresher in one of the cardinal rules of the internet:

    Don't feed the trolls, guys.
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    @Andrew: point taken. Sometime it is fun to see the tricks the trolls try to play, though. Also, sometimes it better to get them out in the light, in hopes that they might be "moderated" (in more ways than one!)

    @Charles: It is very frustrating, isn't it, what passes for humor there!
  • Mark P.
    Posts: 248
    @Charles: I love "hijinks." It's right up there with "caper."
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Mark, I love capers, especially with my lox and bagels! ;-)
    Bruce: I think that using humor ourselves is the way to go with these guys (trolls they may be!)
  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    They further lost credibility, in my eyes, when they published a review of GIA's Gather by a composer who has had his works published by GIA. That's akin to Errol Flynn writing movie reviews for the Warner Brothers of old.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Since they disclosed that fact, and the reviewer in question has no works actually in the hymnal, I don't really see that as a credibility problem.
  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    I do, though Adam, because he still has a connection to GIA. It would be like Bob Hurd reviewing any of OCP's chant settings, even though he does not compose it. It's akin to the fox guarding the hen house.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    There's an awful lot of reviewing that goes on these days that might be described as intramural, and the non-industrial sacred music side is no less prone to this than the industry side. For the sake of form, there are criticisms raised, but often the reviews have the aroma of promotion nevertheless.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    So... Jeffrey Tucker's reviews of the Simple English Propers, or Ostrowki's gushing over the NOH...
    That would be...what?
    Unethical?

    Or my review of Chris Mueller's Mass setting. (I mean- we both have the same publisher... the internet.)

    I know you're super excited about being conservative and orthodox and everything, but sometimes I feel like you need to dial it down.
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