English used in the SEP and Gregorian Missal
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Adam,

    I don't think that attitude is the problem with Mia's viewpoint. I think that she, and I, come from the viewpoint that there is an ideal for each form of the liturgy. And that substitution or replacement of elements of that ideal, like changing the ingredients in a Waldorf Salad, is questionable....does it improve the salad? Maybe to you it does, but it is no longer a Waldorf salad.

    When the substitutions are an improvement, it's not a bog deal. But when they are not, it's disaster or something approaching that.

    A split Sanctus can be a problem - if only because people at Mass can be distracted, thinking, "what's going on?". Yes it has been done in the past and was commonly done I have heard.

    Striving for an ideal is what we are all about. I think?

    Hymn singing at Mass, like the poor, has always been with us. Evidence is that it does not belong at Mass when it replaces something better, but it will always be there.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Thanks, Noel for understanding what I'm trying to say. (It must be Kimchi that you've been having with Koreans : -)

    (Adam, I don't mean to criticize you or anyone here. Most of us here are trying our best to be faithful. I just suggested that you might want to get familiar with TLM, because I found that there are so much to learn, because OF Mass is continued form of EF, and I think you can do so much for the Church. Sadly I know music directors in this area I cannot even speak of this. Thank you for all the work you do, and I always enjoy reading your reviews of the Mass settings.)
  • Patricia Cecilia
    Posts: 400
    Jeffrey, thank you for your comments. I do understand what you are saying, and see the same things both at the diocesan level and higher.

    I also emphatically agree that this is a historic opportunity and that we must seize it with as much grace and compassion as possible. My pastor told me, when I first became involved with musical leadership in the EF, that he expected everyone involved in any way with the EF to have a "winsome and welcoming attitude" at all times. I believe that the condescending attitude of trained/experienced/degreed/traditionalist musicians toward their colleagues who do not agree with them will hamper any efforts, as much as resistance from people who believe that what they are doing is genuinely "what Vatican II wanted".

    Until we can honestly regard each other, regardless of what the present musical content of one's parish liturgy is or the perceived 'orthodoxy' of the person/parish is, as Catholics who genuinely want to follow what the Church wants; and until the more trained etc. of us become winsome and welcoming fellow-workers as well as guides toward a fuller understanding and implementation of what the Church says she wants (and how our diocese will allow/require implementation), then we will not win hearts and minds but will simply add to the divide. Clanging cymbals and so on...

    Thus endeth the soapbox.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,481
    I agree with Patricia.

    And Mia, thank you.
    Honestly- I do think all of us should have an understanding of what is now called the Extraordinary Form, and I wish I knew it better.
    (Funny... Since the Episcopalians only haphazardly got the benefits and pitfalls of the liturgical reforms, sometimes knowing about the Tridentine Rite is the only way to make sense of what they're doing.)
    And my desire to see the Propers being done is (I hope) well known at this point. (My weekly exercise of trying to plan congregational music from the world's most boring hymnal being a huge contributor to that desire...).

    Anywho.

    My sense of things (which could be very wrong, but it's what I think is right) is that all of us generally, and traditionalists in particular, can learn a lot about this issue from Benedict's example.
    He has, to my understanding, a very liberal (classically so) view of the wideness of tradition, with a pastoral sensitivity at least to match JPII's, but with none of his predecessor's apparent modernist permissiveness.
  • rsven
    Posts: 43
    Jeffrey, re. your comment that most church oficials don't understand these issues: as luck would have it, my pastor has mandated the new Missal Ordinaries at all Masses (9), which is a good thing; however, he has also mandated that the Introit be sung, using the new translation only. It was pointed out to him that this music does not exist, but he thinks we should point it ourselves (the musicians). End of issue. However, I stumbled on a website from the Birmingham Oratory, UK, that is promising to release the newly translated propers in the next few months. I asked Msr. Wadsworth about this at the Colloquium, and he said that it is legit., and that one of the people working on the project is Laszlo Dobszhay. http://oratorymusic.org.uk/introduction_full.asp.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    rsven, wow that's...unreasonable.

    Fr. Weber I think has a complete set. and yes, the Parvum is coming. Maybe just show him the SEP? I mean, this music actually sets the sung propers.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Last I e-mailed Fr. Weber about his versions (about a month ago), he said it would be some time because of the changes he had to make...
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    SkirpR. Did you know of this link.
    http://archstl.org/worship/page/institute-sacred-music
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    I suppose Fr. Weber's relocation is probably making him delay some of his music work.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Thanks donr... I am aware of that site, but it seems he has been working to need - which is understandable - but leaves some gaps and different Sundays in different formats. His amazing work on settings like Corpus Christi leave me yearning to see all Sundays and feasts done in such a way.
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