Question about the Our Father melody
  • Ruth Lapeyre
    Posts: 341
    I have done a search and did not find this exact topic covered and I apologize if I missed it. I have been to the ICEL site which shows the draft music for the New Translation of the Mass and I found three examples of music for the Our Father. None of these melodies is the one I am familiar with or familiar to anyone else I know. I did find the melody here http://chabanelpsalms.org/CHABANEL_PSALM_TOME/WEDDING/4167_our_father_KIOTA.pdf But I am wondering why it is not in the draft version of the music for the New Roman Missal? Indeed I don't think it is in the current Sacramentary, perhaps in the appendix. But this is the melody all of my seminarians want to learn. Can anyone tell me if the melody I referenced above will be a part of the final version of the Missal? Indeed I am also curious if this melody has a name. Thanks in advance for any help.
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    That version is often called the "Snow" Our Father, as the melody is by Robert Snow. According to this page from NPM, the Snow version "will appear in the U.S. edition of the Missal as the primary version along with the ICEL settings."
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    This proposed U.S. use is very unfortunate to me. Snow's version is a melodic distortion from the Latin in a number of ways. A new Missal is a great time for a fresh start. All three on the ICEL are far better than the Snow version.
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    All three on the ICEL are far better than the Snow version.

    No offense, but this sounds like something that someone with a preconceived opinion would say. (Along the lines of, "Harumph. It's just not sacred music. It just isn't, and that's clear as day.") Could you explain how all three versions are not just "marginally better" or "substantially better," but in fact "far better" than the Snow?
  • I listened to it. It sounds almost identical to the 'Anglican Version' (which is more faithful to the 'Latin Version' than the familiar 'Catholic Version'), except for the Libera nos, which sounds like some sort of 'made-up' psuedo-chant that one might find in a Lutheran hymnal... rather amateurish... and that's 'clear as day'.
  • Jeffrey wrote: "This proposed U.S. use is very unfortunate to me. Snow's version is a melodic distortion from the Latin in a number of ways. A new Missal is a great time for a fresh start. All three on the ICEL are far better than the Snow version."

    I, too, disagree with this.
    1. Certainly, Snow had his eye on the Latin "Pater Noster" when he composed his setting, but it is an original piece of music.
    2. During the past 40 years of musical horrors in the liturgy, it was the Snow setting that brought reverence, decorum, and a sense of fervent prayer to the Mass. Even the people who like the "junk" sung at Mass will sing the Snow setting. For this reason, Mr. Snow deserves a medal of honor for keeping the faith alive in dire times.
    3. Many of the new missal settings of the Ordinary--Latin to English chant--are interesting, but awkward. Case in point: the new missal English setting of Sanctus XVIII is a distortion of the rhythm and flow found in the Latin original. We need chant for the new missal. But, we need ORIGINAL chant melodies--music that fits the peculiarities and rhythms of English speech. Examples of this can be found in the music of Theodore Marier, David Hurd, and Jeff Ostrowski.
    4. Even at Masses where there is a stubborn resistance to singing, people WILL sing the Snow "Our Father".
    5. Next Advent, there will be many new texts and tunes to introduce. Why not keep the Snow? It will be an anchor, as it is now, when everything else will be so new.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    One of the tests of its quality is that a congregation that can stay in tune through six verses of Pange lingua will go a half step flat by the end of the Our Father. However, the chant is so widely known and sung that I have no plans to replace it any time soon. I just wish the major publishers could agree on the pitches of "for the kingdom" and "now and forever," as you will hear multiple versions being sung simultaneously in any congregation made up of people from different parishes.
  • Ruth Lapeyre
    Posts: 341
    Thank you all for your kind assistance. Most of the men in this year's class of transitional deacons (7) have vocal hurdles to overcome. Convincing them to sing the Mass will be a challenge so perhaps I can use the melody of the Snow version as an "anchor." I will of course teach them the other versions in the New Missal and they should also learn the Latin.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    +1 to what Joseph Michael said.
  • Chris_McAvoyChris_McAvoy
    Posts: 389
    Yes, by continueing to not make the most of the Anglican translations of the ordinary of the mass, there is forever going to be a weakness in the english language plainchant.

    The ICEL and whoever was their overseer has come closer to this approach, but continues to avoid doing it outright. It seems to forever try to reinvent the wheel, to outdo that which has already been proven through decades of usage in both eastern orthodox and various liturgical protestant churches.

    The anglican translation as your basis, with minimal changes is the way to go. One could change the thee's and thous to yours and yous as done in the translation of the Archdiocese of Thyatera and Great Britain of the Ecumenical Patriachate (Greek Orthodox).

    Example:

    "Thou hast given us grace to make these common and united prayers, and hadst promised that when two or three agree in thy name Thou shall grant their requests; fulfill now the petitions of thy servants as is expedient, granting us in this present age the knowledge of thy truth and in the age to come, eternal life."

    becomes:

    "You have given us grace to make these common and united prayers, and have promised that when two or three agree in your name You will grant their requests; fulfill now the petitions of your servants as is expedient, granting us in this present age the knowledge of your truth and in the age to come, eternal life."

    Thou the first example is clearly superior, the second example is a bearable compromise which in actuality is not significantly different.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    ICEL has long excelled at reinventing the wheel. Unfortunately, they have approached neither the excellence of the original design, nor the talents of the original designer.

    "Case in point: the new missal English setting of Sanctus XVIII is a distortion of the rhythm and flow found in the Latin original."

    I agree. Since I will be putting mass cards with the new chants in the pews, I can slip some of those rhythms back in. That's what the congregation already knows, so I see no reason to change. The "Our Father" will not be on the pew cards, so they will sing the chant they have sung for years. I suspect they will never know the difference.