St. Michael's Hymnal
  • a1437053a1437053
    Posts: 198
    First, from what I gathered from this Discussion:
    Our ideal is possibly some form of Graduale propers and ordinaries, with or without vernacular hymns.

    Second, the reality at our parish is all OCP hymns and ordinaries, all the time, (and OCP Spanish 'todo el tiempo').

    ------------------------------------------
    So my questions:

    Q1. In the (glacial, long-term) move towards the ideal, is this St. Michael's Hymnal, a solid step in the right direction?

    Q2. Is the Hymnal worth the cost to take our first steps towards the ideal with this hymnal and to unshackle our parish from OCP for the first time immemorial? Given that we'll need to have this for a few years before another large purchase is made? Given that we'd look to follow this up with the PBC at some point?

    Q3. Or are there other hymnals that better bridge the gap between a form of the ideal: PBC and readings (as Jeffrey suggested earlier in this post) and our reality: OCP?

    ------------------------------------------

    I ask all of this, because, tonight, when I gave our pastor his GIFT copy of Inclina Domine, (including Jeffrey's NLM posts on the CD), he mentioned to me that he wanted to purchase a new, non-OCP hymnal! And he asked for my suggestions! Being a non-musician, I have been praying for his guidance and leadership a stronger step away from what our music ministry currently offers, so to hear this was music to my ears!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,221
    It's a problem. To move toward the ideal, you need good chant-like Mass settings. But the existing ones (e.g., by Marier in the Adoremus Hymnal 250-254) are all to be made obsolete in a couple of years, when the English Mass texts are replaced with new versions. That's probably the case for any hymnal, including the St. Michael's; so this isn't a good time to buy.

    On the other hand, you don't have to stick with OCP; there are a few other publishers of temporary hymnals and booklets, and they'd all probably would give you better music choices.
  • Daniel Bennett PageDaniel Bennett Page
    Posts: 837
    I would not recommend buying any permanent congregational book with English-language Mass texts until the new translation is authorized for use.
    One can make up a weekly/monthly/seasonal leaflet with public-domain music materials fairly quickly and cheaply.
    I've completely decoupled from OCP and am usually only partially succesful in avoiding smugness and impatience while encouraging others to do so.
    There are a number of yearly paperback liturgy booklets available with no music. I have found those of WLP to be the least objectionable.
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    DBP - Something I've never seen but might be nice would be a short description in your leaflets explaining why a particular piece is appropriate for the season or date. I realize it might be a lot of work, but it might start people on the road to understanding the relationship between liturgy and music. I honestly believe that most people don't have a clue except for the very few who note that the words of the song sound a lot like whatever that guy was reading up there.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,850
    We are hoping to purchase a hymnal very soon. St. Michaels is at the top of my list. The Mass parts in the front are not the reason I am buying a hymnal. The music is. Buy the hymnal. If you really need Mass parts you should seriously consider a supplemental that has just that. PBC is a good option or Jubilate Deo (although only 1 Mass there). If you want Masses in English, well, good luck!
  • Daniel Bennett PageDaniel Bennett Page
    Posts: 837
    priorsf: yes, notes about the particular significance of at least some of each week's musical works are extremely helpful. I always give citations for the source of the text and the music of anything the choir sings alone (as well as the full text and a translation). After nearly 2 years my choir is beginning to look for the various connections I try to make via musical choices each week!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    I have no desire to return to all chant, all Latin masses from ancient Europe. Nowhere did I say we should throw out Latin or chant, but I don't want to return to them to the exclusion of everything else. It seems to me that hymns are an authentic North American organic development, and that good hymns can add to liturgy when properly used. I do like the St. Michael, but am holding off on purchasing anything until the liturgy revisions and the Revised Grail Psalter are published. Also, I don't intend to buy another "do everything" hymnal like RitualSong. It seems that buying both a psalter and a separate hymnal would be better.
  • a1437053a1437053
    Posts: 198
    *chonak/Daniel Bennett Page: No need for English Ordinary Texts or Mass Texts, as "consumable" OCP/WLP English/Spanish "missalette" serves that purpose. NO ONE AT OUR PARISH SINGS THE ORDINARY from any "hymnal". I guess in the future, they might, but . . . isn't the Ordinary *ideally* all Latin, most, if not, all of the time?
    -And I also find bilingual WLP the least objectionable, although their artwork is turning too abstract, at the same time that OCP changes the other way.

    *francis: Let me know what you end up deciding . . . and the response from congregation, musicians, etc.

    *CharlesW: Given the state of our parish, any step towards "properly used" hymns is a great and positive development! No need to dream of "all Latin" yet!

    My dream:
    1. Transition into more Latin and solid hymns at many Masses (*TBA* Hymnal, WLP missalette)
    2. Transition one Sunday Mass into full/almost full Graduale, like "Inclina Domine", and vernacular readings (PBC, WLP missalette)
    3. "En-rich" other Masses, especially "geetar en Español" into full compliance (j/k)
    ...too much dreaming...
  • bsven
    Posts: 20
    The great virtue of the St. Michael's Hymnal, as the Reverend Father has said, is that the Mass parts are printed at the front of the hymnal, as is also done in the Adoremus. This is the whole battle--to get the people to chant in response to the priest. The chanted ordinaries and propers and collects are actually secondary to this. The idea that the Mass should be SUNG begins here, in these parts, the dialogues between the priest and the people. I also agree with Mr. Tucker, that the poverty of having to use the OCP hymnal can lead to a greater reliance on authentic sources (the Graduale). On the subject of hymns in the Mass: I direct a schola for a traditional rite Latin Mass; when I arrived on the scene, they were already singing a processional and recessional hymn before and after the Mass. I asked the priest (FSSP) if we shouldn't dump these hymns, and he said no, maybe they would teach the people to sing. So I've gotten used to them. The big organ sound takes the place of prelude and postlude, and is a comfort to crossover people, I think. Anyway, I've gotten used to it, in spite of my purist notions. There are many ways to skin a cat, please excuse the irreverence. So we have hymns, gregorian propers and ordinaries, and the whole Mass chanted.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    "So we have hymns, gregorian propers and ordinaries, and the whole Mass chanted."

    Sounds like an ideal situation to me. I like starting the mass with the big organ sound, since chant can sound a bit weak in comparison. There's a contemporary guitar person in the area who will use "Seek Ye First" as an entrance hymn. Whether or not one likes the hymn, it's too weak for that spot in the liturgy. This is not an either/or situtation. One can do the good hymn, then do the entrance chant. I am very interested in the St. Michael, but am waiting for the new mass translations, and the new psalms. It is my hope that the publishers quickly update the St. Michael as soon as those are approved. Then I will bid a less than fond farewell to RitualSong as it sails into the dumpster.
  • Tournemire
    Posts: 74
    I just started a job at a very large, prominent Catholic church which has the OCP Breaking Bread hymnal in the pews. We are in the process of changing and getting proper hymnals for the pews, but the problem is, should we wait for the new translation? Stick with OCP another 2-3 years (which I cannot bear)? In the meanwhile I am printing worship aides every week with some proper hymnody, since there are some basic hymns missing from OCP, but printing an elaborate worship aid for 1000 people per weekend turns out costly.

    Any suggestions? Hold of for a while? Buy e.g. St. Michael Hymnal now?
  • Daniel Bennett PageDaniel Bennett Page
    Posts: 837
    Tournemire:
    Despite the cost and complication of a weekly liturgy leaflet, it's definitely the way to go until the dust has settled with all the new translations, etc.
    It also allows one to go back to the truly original versions of hymns--not just the selected verses available even in the most venerable and excellent hymnals--and make your own selection of verses.
    Otherwise, I would suggest the Saint Michael Hymnal, for all the positive reasons discussed above.
    For me, this is especially important because of the texts. I will continue to say loudly, clearly, and unrelentingly that the bastardization of hymn texts in GIA, OCP, and WLP materials makes them completely unacceptable for Catholic worship. While SMH occasionally slips up and includes a 'hidden' subversive text alteration, they have succeeded in preserving the integrity of a huge repertory of traditional hymnody. I do dislike many of the harmonizations and arrangements that they have imported from OCP, which are often incompatable with the choir-leading-congregation model of hymnody. Their inclusion of Taize onstinati mostly without any of the vocal and instrumental obbligati (even in the choir editions) makes them unusable without also owning the full Taize music books.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Agreed.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    Taize? Sometimes I think some of the things from that group are nearly as bad as the GIA/OCP materials.

    Pastor remember me?
    I am in your congregation. ;-)

    I have a pastor who will not buy anything until the new translations are out. I am hoping the St. Michael gets revised soon after.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    I have had a conversation recently with one of the Jeffs about using printed worship sheets and if you really want to get people singing, make only 6 layouts and pass them out at the door and have people return them to the door after Mass....changing them weekly.

    As CharlesW does, fewer hymns means more singing.
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    CharlesW and Noel, MaryMezzo: There is a Parish in our Diocese what is using St. Michael's. Have you heard any feedback from that?

    Donna
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    The former assistant pastor there thought highly of the St. Michael. I haven't talked to anyone else.
  • marymezzomarymezzo
    Posts: 236
    Yes, our friend MFG is using that hymnal, and I think she is pleased with it. What the congregation and choir think is perhaps another story.

    I will say that when the B16 schola sang at that parish last fall, the simple "Salve Regina" chant from the St. Michael was the offertory hymn. There were plenty of older folks in the congregation whom I would have thought would know that chant . . . but when we sang it, only one person sang along--the pastor, who sang it from memory.

    The parish is experiencing some of the usual strain between those who want happy-clappy music and those who would prefer more appropriate hymnody.

    I do not know whether they are still singing Christoph Tietze's introit hymns. Thanks to the former pastor, they have his book in the pews alongside the St. Michael.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    I used to really want St. Michael's and complained relentlessly about our Heritage thing or whatever it is from OCP

    Lamentably, Hymns, Songs, and Spiritual Canticles from Ted Marier, KCSG is out of print and NOBODY seems to know if it will rise again......
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