I.
They.

I lost all respect for Fr. Ruff because of the accusations that he was leveling. While he's said some good things in the past, it seems to me that some of the folks have lost their way on a lot of things.

Fact check:

*Fr. Ruff continues to visit and contribute to this forum, positively, as late as yesterday.
*As Liam states, we have a choice to conduct ourSELVES as either "I.They." or "Us."
*The editorial manangement standards at PT are difficult to fathom, much less understand, but that is their business, and everyone has to decide whether to participate without expectation of "fairness" being a factor in that decision.
*Francis fought a very good fight; but one could look at PT as a fortress of ideology. Sooner or later the best an opponent of their status quo should expect to achieve is "hitting the wall." One would hope that AWR and RF, editor, would keep an open house, rather than a castle surrounded by moats, fences and other defenses....alas.
*To me this is a fact: thinking about thinking is valued more at PT as opposed to thinking about doing. In that same thread one of the "cast of characters" actually declared that one particular exchange was "argument, not discussion," and therefore that polluted the dialectic. Argument, to me, seems an integral aspect of discussion. Argument is not intrinsically a bad thing. The person who made that charge seemed to have missed "Monty Python 101: Argument v. Contradiction."
*One should expect, if advancing an agenda about doing, rather than thinking, to be swarmed and stung with barbs about not being intellectually qualified to contribute to the discussion. True or not, that often also conflates into ad hominems. If a contender to PT conventional wisdom levels an ad hominem, heaven cries out for vengeance. If a PT adherent levels an ad hominem, the only sound one should expect is silence (maybe with crickets.)
*We ought not to ever state we have lost all respect for any soul who follows Christ. We have to own our statements because we must account for them. Tell the truth in love, want to reconcile with our siblings, and move on.
*I believe the way in which young Adam Wood enters the fray at PT is both wise and cool. He speaks from his experience, doesn't appear to re-state anyone else's opinion, and gets his point across succinctly. (Something this old fart, schooled by Wm.F. Buckley Institute of Bloviation, cannot do!)
*And when all else fails, consider how folks like AOZ/MJB regard these kerfuffles: "Oh, it's all a bunch of hooey."
Have a nice day, everyone.

As much as I am wary of enlivening long forgotten threads, I have to say this:

Pray Tell Blog is an ideological echo chamber. In my efforts to contribute constructively (and not always contrary-mindedly) to some of their discussions, I have been repeatedly shot down (posts deleted without comment).

I don't know what exactly the editors/purveyor are afraid of, but they are afraid of something.

Time to shake the dust off... sorry for the rant.

(begin purple bold) Of course, anyone who wears a bow tie is immediately suspect since he bows to archaic conventions and clings to simplistic notions and must therefore be intransigent and inflexible. Furthermore, a predilection for stripes is proof of a triumphalist, regimentalist, Victorian mindset. There is very little doubt that the bow-tie wearer is a social dinosaur and subscribes to a belief in----horror of horrors--- Absolute Values. (shudders uncontrollably) (end purple bold)

P.S. That being said, I must confess that I think bow ties are the epitome of sartorial splendor, esp. striped bow ties, and hope you will always wear one, Ben, mainly because, rightly or wrongly, it gives the impression that you are a Man of Conviction and perhaps, even, maybe, possibly, a Fundamentalist Christian/Catholic, and for that I applaud and salute you, despite what our pontiff says to the contrary.

What has astonished me more is that the local bishop still considers St John's Abbey and its related schools and seminary to be Catholic institutions.

It's Diocese of St. Cloud, Bishop Donald Joseph Kettler.

If the commentariat on the "Pray Tell" site think that bow ties are something foreign, perhaps none of them are classically trained singers.

I never read Prey Tail. Melo Charles seems to think well of some of the folks there, but I have never heard of most of them and they are irrelevant to anything I am doing.

ok... tangent... I wear real one with tux

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VJv4Qh7zR3E

I find it fascinating and informative.

I'm as guilty of it as anyone else, but I won't put myself in that occasion, so I've shaken the dust from them too.

Perhaps, but we were also told to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves. We seem to not have picked up on the "wise" part yet. I can stay away from that site because it offers me little of use in my own situation.

This is a bit disheartening for me. Timely too, as I just got tarred and feathered at 1Peter5 for my predilection for trying to be Rodney King over there. Won't make that mistake twice. I do hold certain folks over there at PTB as being "well," particularly those who also have the trust and confidence to visit and comment here. Like Kathy, a small portion of content is of value to me, and some fascinating and informative in both sides of the meaning. Bob Hurd used to characterize the liturgy wars as being tension between those who cling to ecclesiology/theology from a Jacob's ladder POV, and their opponents to a Sarah's circle motif. Then it made sense. Now, it seems everyone wants to commandeer the ladder so that those who make it up can close their circle to that which is alien. Doesn't make sense.

In English, Adam, please?

Someone who leans trad, and is surprised by vitriol in the comments section of a traddie/conservative blog probably has has a self-created blind-spot when it comes to how people they sort-of agree with behave.

It's like when people say, "All politicians are liars... except the one I like."
No, even that one.

Basically, there's a considerable portion of St Blog's and its penumbra that have their origin in venting resentment. (Before blogs, there were the USENET discussion boards, and this dynamic obtained there no less.) There are information-sharing places, resentment-stroking places, and places that combine both functions. Across the spectrum, and including the mushy middle (though the mushy middle tends to have less energy to bother to scream aloud at the world).

Melofluent

The problem in general in the Internet is that there's a barbell curve overrepresenting insulated, inhospitable and awfully convinced people who are overcompensating for finally finding a "safe space"....to vent and demonstrate our Righteous Thinking(TM).

It's a very human dynamic.

And boy do we need grace.

If Ben does, he will learn that the bowtie will, unfortunately, be taken as an invitation to especially ignore him here. (Disclosure: I wore crooked bowties in college, and like them, so long as people know never to wear them with button-down shirts (cough, cough). I was in Virginia. It was 35 years ago. I was drunk a couple of times. I remain sufficiently impressed with people who know how to tie them properly, but hope they understand that the bowtie may get in their way.)

Liam, I live here too. Being ignored is not the worst form of social status.

Richard,

Yes. You are not alone. I know a number of bowtie wearers in Catholic music circles around here. And I agree that being ignored is certainly far from the worst form of social status. It can at times, however, be an unforced error when you need to persuade people who have the metaphorical keys, as it were.

I can think of a priest I once knew who was a local and who had a hard bias against people who went to Harvard or MIT - he felt they had opinions they weren't entitled to. Whereas he worked that bias so much that someone should have told him that just because these people went to Harvard or MIT didn't mean they were stupid. Bias abounds all over.

I was visiting PrayTell today, trying to see if Msgr. Mannion who posts there is the same as associated with the recent Utah Eucharistic phenomenon. Alas, I have seen no references.

However, I foolishly read a post and got frustrated (about Intercommunion). However, as a music director hired to shift the direction of the parish music program toward tradition, I find it helpful to discover what the perspective is that shapes (consciously or not) the music currently. From my venture this morning to PrayTell, I discovered that their view is that Communion is achieved through interpersonal relationships, which lead to God, fed by the "Bread of Heaven." This is in contrast to the traditional Catholic view that Communion is achieved through relationship with God, and through Him to those others who are also in Communion with him, and the perfect form of that Communion is the Eucharist. The former seeks Communion with everyone, and does not see why all cannot receive the Eucharist, whereas the latter is God-seeking first, and desires to achieve the perfect Communion that the consumption of Christ's flesh and blood, soul and divinity, fosters.

Relatedly, I recently read some of James Hansen's "Cantor BASICS," a book from 1990 left by the previous music director (may she rest in peace), published by the Pastoral Press. While immensely frustrating, it was enlightening to know what mindset has in part shaped the liturgical worship at this church (again, consciously or not). Specifically, his answer (on pages 108-9, Q. 92) to "What is elemental music?" explained to me so much of why Bad Catholic Music is the way it is. For example, elemental music seeks to be immediately accessible to untrained congregations, so scale-steps and -skips are desired, rhythm is emphasized over melody, since people can pick that up quicker than complex tunes. Originality and musical seduction are rejected. "The ritual function of the assembly's acclamation is accepted as basically a political, legitimating act." Music must serve "here and now," not "art which transcends time."

The text of such music is "defined by the needs of this world only." The object and often subject of texts is the assembly or its actions. "Ritual is the celebration of what is not certain." (?)

These insights, and the anthropocentric, God-is-not-necessary answer of the following question (p. 110, Q. 94, "How can we sing real life?"), have shown me the root of the musical problem. I do not have the answer, though the work of CMAA is obviously a great source of inspiration, but it is worth understanding what happened and what you are up against.

1+ K. Well said.

One commenter on this thread posed the question "What are they afraid of at PrayTell"?

I suggest it is a growing sense of the "creeping mortality" of they're seemingly intractable stuck-in-the-darkest-days-of the-1970s mindset. The liturgical world is shifting ever more to the traditional which scares them because it forces them to take notice that their efforts have turned out to be a temporary aberration, producing no lasting fruit.

I read PrayTell for about two months a couple of years ago, and posted some rather innocuous comments on the topics presented. In response I was attacked with some of the most stunningly petulant, vicious, and hysterical vitriol it has ever been my experience to see and hear from alleged adults.

To go there is a borderline occasion of sin. I recommend avoiding it.

Gaudete in Domino Semper!

I suggest it is a growing sense of the "creeping mortality" of they're seemingly intractable stuck-in-the-darkest-days-of the-1970s mindset.

I worked as a teacher in Catholic and public schools for some years before retirement. What always seemed to tear up the aging guitar crowd and crooners at school masses was when the middle-schoolers laughed at them. That is the problem when you attach yourself to dated schemes and philosophies. Time does not stop and those philosophies become like an open can of tuna that can't stay fresh in the sun.

Perhaps someone can clear up something about PT. I don't know anyone there, so I am not attacking anyone, just asking for information. Supposedly, Fr. Ruff is a chant expert and I had heard he is the leading light behind PT. Is Fr. Ruff serious about Gregorian chant or is he like the infamous Rembert Weakland - a fine musician who understood chant quite well, but didn't want anyone singing it during liturgies. Enlighten us ye knowledgeable ones since I don't have a clear picture of PT or understand exactly what is going on there.