Jeff,

I don't mind Flor y Canto for hymns. It's not impossible to find truly excellent texts and Psalm settings. There's plenty of liberation theology, but some really great things, such as Dios no quiere, Quiero decir que si, Como estrella en claro cielo.

Would it be possible to talk your pastor into accepting "outside the hymnal" Mass settings, since the people don't use the hymnal very often for these?

I'm told that the IVE Seminary has a very nice spanish hymnal that they are thinking about publishing - IVE Press. Contact them with your interest in this project!
http://www.ivepress.org/

Dumb question ... what hymnals are used in Mexico, the rest of Latin America, and Spain?

In my travels through Mexico, I have never seen a hymnal used in a parish. The people tend to sing the same songs over and over again. This isn't to say that there aren't some parishes who use hymnals; I have just never seen one.
In Spain they also use the Cantoral Litúrgico Nacional. If anyone is interested in obtaining a copy, send me a message. I have about 50 that I am not using.
In the community of consecrated women where I live, we are taking a lot of songs from the CLN plus translating songs from French, Italian, and English to make our own Spanish and Latin hymnbook. Several other communities I know are also doing this.
There is definitely a lack of good music editors in Mexico; Fernando Gil commented on this in the thread Sacred Music Down in Mexico.

There might be some small ray of hope in that GIA will be releasing its own Spanish-language book. I have seen the previews and they look rather interesting. One of the songs included in the book is "Now the Green Blade Rises.". In my research I also learned that they code a few pieces from "Flor y Canto" were translated into English. I was also surprised to learn that GIA will also include a Spanish-language version of the ICEL chants. I have guarded optimism about this particular endeavor, given the fact that, as I understand it, GIA will be using "Gather Comprehensive" as its base.

I am interested in what the Spaniards have done with music. I hope that the "Kikos" have not totally influenced it.

I am new to this forum, but certainly not new to music, or even Spanish music. I have for the greater portion of my life, worked in both Spanish and English music. I studied organ performance, as well as learned several different Spanish instruments, and have never, ever seen a hymnal to the degree that you guys are looking for. I have a vast and very large collection of spanish hymnals, and not just the Flor y Cantos and Cantos del pueblo de Dios. There are hymnals that are complete with hymns that are translated from English into Spanish, such as Praise to the Lord the almighty, Holy Holy Holy (Nicaea), etc.... but they are protestant hymnals, and if you wish to use them, you will have to examine the theology of some of the hymns, as they have the protestant twist that may get you into trouble with a very well minded Spanish priest, who is paying attention.

On a side note: to the poster above, just a heads up, the Cantos del Pueblo de Dios, is even more liberal and charismatic resource, than Flor y Canto. They have a larger content of the charistmatic music that is not in Flor y Canto, so I definitely wouldn't call Cantos del Pueblo de Dios by WLP/JS Paluch, a better resource by any means. Most especially not in line with the thinking of great sacred music.

We have to examine why it will be an uphill battle to find a great Spanish resource. If we look at the churches in latin america, you probably could count on your hands, the churches that boast grand pipe organs, or even an electronic organ at all. This comes from my own first hand experience. When I was in Puerto Rico, my homeland, I was at the cathedral in the Condado, and was expecting to hear that pipe organ play, as the procession of the Archbishop processed in, and to my shock, it never even sounded. What sounded was the Cuatro, flutes, and a few other instruments, to the sound of the cultural music of PR. This is the same scenario of music found even in Peru, as my wife is from Peru. Most Peruvians think the "piano" is actually the organ. They have no idea what the difference is. I have had this conversation, as I tried to educate many of the people I have encountered in the Spanish communities, as to what an Organ is, and what a piano is. So to even think that they would know the calibre or quality of music, which we are trying to attain, or reinstate in our English culture in the US, is an uphill battle.

Spain for hymnals???? no, hardly. In fact the Catholic Church in Spain, over the last few years, has been suffering with even lower attendance than over here in the US. When I was in Spain for a time, you could see the many under utilized organs, and churches that were plain empty. Over the last few years, the Charismatic movement has been very big, and sacred music is slowly taking an even further backseat to the more modern music. It is almost as if Spain is trying to catch up to Latin America in a sense. I played for an Easter Sunday mass in a church in Palma de Mallorca back in 94, and would you all guess what the Gloria, the pastor gave me was???? Guess>???? The battle of hymn of the Republic,,,, that infamous Gloria that is even used over here in the US as a "Gloria" Later on as I matured in sacred music, I thought back to that time when I played there, and thought OMG, I can't believe that was the high piece of the mass, and that in Spain of all places, I heard or even played the Battle hymn of the Republic. I thought Spain was this great conservative, high mass, Organ only kind of country, and found out to my dismay, that it is not. In fact a lot of the Charismatic music that has come out of Latin America, originated where??? Spain!!!

Sorry for the long post on this, but I am very, very familiar with the question and route that you guys are asking, and it simply is rare or unheard of, to find resources that even come close to what we are trying to do with reforming music to a more sacred tone. It's like asking where the great pipe organs of Africa are?!?! those people would just laugh us out of their country, as their music and culture is not of big pipe organs, sacred song. It's a cultural thing.

Good luck on the search, if you come up with anything, please pass it along. I would be curious to see some progress being made, but with the realization that we have a long ways to go just in English music, I want to pick my battles one at a time.

Michael

Thanks to everyone for your valuable insights!
I noticed that the 1994 version of the Cantoral Litúrgico Nacional is available for download on this site: http://musikliturgik.blogspot.com/2010/07/cantoral-liturgico-nacional-de-espana.html Cantoral completo, 1994 edition
Finale versions of the files plus MIDI files: http://www.musicaliturgica.com/cancioneroliturgico/
If anyone is still interested in a hard copy of either the 1982 or the 1994 edition, just send me a message. (The two editions are slightly different, although I haven't done an in-depth comparison. I just noticed that a few songs I like from the 1982 edition are not in the 1994 edition.) I will be going to the United States in May or July and can send them by post while I'm there.

The other thing I can't figure out is why Catholic hymnal publishers (and particularly ones doing Spanish hymnals) don't have more hymns for saints.

I mean, I thought we were Catholic and got to have some Catholic celebratory fun sometimes, but noooooo.

I am also researching Spanish sacred music in the Philippines, and there are lots of them here, but apparently underutilised and easily forgotten. Some have persisted, such as the No mas amor que el tuyo (the Filipino hymn to the Sacred Heart), the Nacio, nacio, pastores (one of the many versions in the Spanish-speaking world), and others. A month ago, an elderly lady handed me copies of two Spanish motets for Communion (Venid, venid and Jesus amante). I have yet to hear them properly, but when she sang them, they were sacred.

I don't understand why there seems to be a dearth in Spanish traditional hymns and sacred music. My devotionary lists at least five of these hymns (some I know, some I know not), and I am sure every devotionary I will encounter will have a different repertoire. There is even an entire book (a copy of which I possess) for Spanish liturgical music composed by Marcelo Adonay, ranging from gozos for different novenas (in honour of the different patron saints venerated by the Filipinos) to chanted rosaries and Passion rosaries, from regal Masses (Missae regiae) to grand orchestral Masses. A second volume is even underway.

And these do not include the countless cantorals that abound in colonial parishes in the archipelago.

I have little to offer in the realm of hymns, but for the ordinary, you could use these:
http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/6631/accompaniments-for-spanish-ordinaries#Item_1
Not my translations or accompaniments ... just my transcription of Fr. Spencer's work, combined with NOH and VII Hymnal accompaniments. The Gloria is not completed yet, but is on my list of projects ... along with the other chant mass that Fr. Spencer has set to Spanish text.

Good news! Cokesbury has 2 hymnals in Spanish. At $20 a piece they are a steal! They are called Mil Voces. Rejoice!

Bump, as we really need some solid resources.

We've had a lot of wonderful response from our bilingual hymnal Oramos Cantando/We Pray in Song.

I'm happy to send complimentary copies (within reason) for review and comments to anybody interested.


Matt

mattm@giamusic.com

I have to agree with the above assessment, Matt. While there are some good things, I cannot really recommend this book to my parish because our music ministers will gravitate towards the bad.

Why GIA insists on promoting bad music like that produced by non-Catholic composers (who do not understand basic Catholic sacramental theology-Marty Haugen) and "catholic" composers (who are more interested in pushing their own agenda rather than Church teaching-David Haas) is beyond me. It is BAD enough to have to endure this drek in English. Must we subjected to additional punishment in Spanish?

The same also holds true for the Spanish music chosen from OCP. It is certainly BAD enough to have to deal with this stuff in one language. It is twice as bad to have to put up with it in two languages.

Insofar as the psalms are concerned, why could you have not worked with the beautiful Gelineau tones? These are far superior.

I am preparing a review of the bilingual GIA book for my liturgical blog. I really wanted to find something useful in it, but, it is too much of the same.

It seems to me that GIA is moving further and further away from its namesake, paying less attention to the beauty of Gregorian music and more towards the saccharine pop that OCP is offering.

If GIA really wanted to do something that would benefit the Church, it should look at composing Trilingual propers so that the faithful can actually be exposed to what we should have been using in the first place.

Organist27, I do hope that your hymnal fares well. I would certainly be among the first to get hold of it.

We recently formed a Spanish choir; I'm really trying to steer them towards the music they are familiar with, but they don't seem to have a core group of old standbys, so to speak, that they rely on. They would sing OCP' s translated hymns, but I think if people want a Spanish mass with Spanish music, that music shouldn't be an after-thought translation of an.

Jani, if your opinion about translations ruled the day, we would not be able to sing Adoro te devote or Tantum ergo in any language but Latin; and we could not sing "Praise to the Lord, the Almighty" in any language but German. In fact, no translation whatever could ever be used since translations are always "afterthoughts."

Sorry, but I think you stereotype Latinos when you write that they should not sing translations of things originally in English or another language. They are just as happy to sing a Spanish translation of "Holy God, We Praise Thy Name" as Anglos and Croatians are to sing an English or Croatian translation of "Pescador de Hombres."

And you should probably have a discussion with benedictgal. It sounds as if the things you want your choir to sing because they are familiar OCP fare are the same things benedictgal wants to avoid because they are familiar OCP fare.

They are just as happy to sing a Spanish translation of "Holy God, We Praise Thy Name" as Anglos and Croatians are to sing an English or Croatian translation of "Pescador de Hombres."

I guess Fr. K intends that as meaning that English-speakers and Croatians are quite happy to sing it. To me it means "not very happy". Presenting "Pescador" is pandering to a low level of musical taste.

Surely the Spanish version of "Holy God" must have attained more acceptance than 1979's "Pescador". There have been Spanish translations of "Holy God, We Praise Thy Name"/"Grosser Gott, Wir Loben Dich" over 100 years. And that's not even counting the stylistic differences between the two songs.

It would be a fine thing to look for newly composed Spanish-language hymns suitable for use at Mass, rather than rely too much on recycled products from the English-language music publishers.

We can't count on them. Isn't "Pan de Vida" grammatically incoherent Spanish ("poder es servir"), still uncorrected after all these years?

There have been Spanish translations of "Holy God, We Praise Thy Name"/"Grosser Gott, Wir Loben Dich" over 100 years. And that's not even counting the stylistic differences between them.

References, please. And if you can actually locate one, is the meter 7 8 7 8 77?

The content is disappointing. Furthermore, just because something is "familiar", that does not make it good.

I wonder what benchmark Fr. Krishna and company used for this book. I daresay that they seemed to have ignored this important one from Sacramentum Caritatis:

Liturgical song

42. In the ars celebrandi, liturgical song has a pre-eminent place. (126) Saint Augustine rightly says in a famous sermon that "the new man sings a new song. Singing is an expression of joy and, if we consider the matter, an expression of love" (127). The People of God assembled for the liturgy sings the praises of God. In the course of her two-thousand-year history, the Church has created, and still creates, music and songs which represent a rich patrimony of faith and love. This heritage must not be lost. Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything -- texts, music, execution -- ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons (129). Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed (130) as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy (131).

A lot of what was selected from the Spanish language side as well as some from the English, certainly "fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy" and these "should be avoided." Was there really a need to rehash theologically and spiritual weak stuff from Marty Haugen and David Haas, and "Pescador de Hombres"? These are fair questions that GIA would rather not answer.

SC 42 is a solid benchmark that I will use when posting my review.

I don't know what they sing in Mexico and I certainly don't mean to denigrate what they do sing. My point is that I am trying to give this choir what it wants, and while I said they would be willing (because they really want to sing!) to sing "I Am the Bread of Life" or whatever transposed, none of them have actually proposed doing so.

I live in a Mexican-rich part of my state - one of our mission parishes is 100% Mexican and they unashamedly sing "Folky, Ranchy, Guitar.." music. The choir in my parish, however, doesn't seem to want to do that - their idea, not mine. I presumed this thread was to help people like us.

It really isn't helpful to try and join a conversation and continually get slammed and labeled. My experiences in my parish are what they are, and I guess whatever that makes me, well so be it.

Jani, I didn't mean to label you or accuse anyone of being anything. I was really talking about the publishing companies, particularly OCP which has significant influence in many of the churches and chapels I've been to here in the U.S.

Melofluent, I think I see what you are trying to say. I believe we've strayed a bit from the original topic, which was to help locate Spanish liturgical music, not argue about why it's difficult to find.

I live along the Texas Mexican border. Lamentably, the music is horrid on both sides of the Rio Grande. Sadly, Mariachis are used a lot, even in funeral Masses.

If you were to view the OLG Mass from the Basilica in Mexico City, you will, oddly enough find that Mariachis are not used during the Mass. They show up before, along with the Mexican celebrities who sing to Our Lady of Guadalupe, but, they are NOT a part of the Mass.

What is just as bad is that they also use OCP in Nuevo Laredo.

I will be releasing my review of the GIA bilingual book some time this week. Whatever hopes I had that this would be the ideal replacement for OCP are gone. One is just as bad as the other. I really wanted to like and use this book, but, it's got equal parts of bad English music and horrible Spanish music.

I don't think that Fr. Krisman has done due diligence. Hopefully, Adam Bartlett can do something in Spanish. I am tired of music for Spanish-language Masses being relegated to the status of the red-headed stepchild.

Jani, the reason "they don't seem to have a core group of old standbys" is because most of the Spanish "church music" in use today has been written since the mid 1900's and new songs keep on being published, so every generation seems to have their own definition of "traditional" songs

This does not seem unique to Spanish.

Good call, Kathy, on the Abel Marco.
But as you indicate, the upside is often limited to one-shot locales.
I actually think that if Spanish language experts, whether Cortez, Meza, would take a cue from our esteemed, learned friend Pedro D'Aquino, that a sort of genetically authentic "Nueva musica Catolicos" (sp?) would be given time to germinate, grow to fruition and be harvested as a collective, the exact opposite of what happened here and elsewhere in Anglophone and some non-Anglophone regions. (Yeah, I'm looking at you, Germany.)