Exceptional cantors and organist • Saint Peter's Catholic Church
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    ah . . . if only all of our cantors and organists could be as skilled as these folks

    Saint Peter's Catholic Church
    Established 1821 in the Diocese of Charleston
    City of Columbia, South Carolina USA

    Responsorial Psalm 40 - Joseph Gelineau

    Antiphon: R./ Here I am Lord! I come to do your will.

    I waited, I waited for the Lord and he stooped down to me; he heard my cry. He put a new song into my mouth, praise of our God. R./

    You do not ask for sacrifice and offerings, but an open ear. You do not ask for holocaust and victim. Instead, here am I. R./

    In the scroll of the book it stands written that I should do your will. My God, I delight in your law in the depth of my heart. R./

    Your justice I have proclaimed in the great assembly. My lips I have not sealed; you know it, O Lord. R./

    Sarah Moncer and Mary Alice Thomy, Sopranos
    Mark Husey, Tenor & Organ
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Jeff,

    this is Saint Peter's in Columbia, some hundred miles inland from The Holy City. It may not make much difference to some people, but believe me, it means a lot to people in Charleston!

    People come to Columbia for three things - the State House, the State Hospital and the State Pen. Saint Peter's, however, has an excellent music program. You should check the St Peter's YouTube channel for the Monteverdi Vespers that was done last summer. It's pretty impressive.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    And I hasten to add, Mark is a fine fellow and an excellent musician. Those girls are top-notch singers - angelic straight tone. They were both in the Monteverdi as well.
  • OlbashOlbash
    Posts: 314
    Some day we will drag Mark Husey kicking and screaming into this organization. He would have much to offer!
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    You should seriously check out this playlist of the Monteverdi Vespers. It was an excellent experience. The church was packed to the rafters in spite of the torrential rainstorm that started around an hour before the service.
  • The musicians in the video are remarkable. They are an excellent example of what good church music should sound like.

    However, I grow troubled of organists who sing while they simultaneously play. I hear this is a trend for churches to save money from hiring vocalists. I know this is true because a former priest of mine joked about it by swinging the microphone in front of my face while I was at the organ one day. He also asked me "Can you sing while you play?"

    But yet, one of the roles of a cantor is to be a visual for the congregation. How can a cantor be a visual if their back is to the congregation while accompanying themself? Doesn't this also affect the blend of voices if one person in a group is facing the opposite direction? Aren't choir sections also deliberately arranged to be in a certain manner?

    Singing while playing is also reminiscent of piano bar playing (being an "entertainer") which is a "look at me!" and "one man show"/Billie Joel type of thing. I see this done with the CCCM/broadway style during the liturgy. Who needs a cantor if the organist can do everything? Who needs a small group of singers if the organist can also sing harmony while playing?

    Doesn't the church organist do enough at once? - play with both hands and both feet, reading three staves simultaneously while conducting a choir. Does the organist need to sing while playing, too? Should the organist sing while playing, too? Also, isn't it impersonal to sing with your back to the congregation?

    Granted, the example provided in the video was merely a Responsorial Psalm. So, the harmonizing was fairly simple for the verses, but I wasn't sitting in the congregation - so, I don't know if the blend was off since his back was facing the congregation. But if there was a larger group involved, then his voice would stick out much more if he wasn't in the tenor section. I suppose there's a reason why singers are usually grouped together to have their voices project in the same manner. Singers also tend to not have their backs facing an audience unless it is to have a special effect.

    In no way shape or form am I saying that the organist did a bad job. Quite the contrary, the singers and organist sounded great on the recording. This is merely a query of the practice of "singing while playing". I cannot locate any references to the history or purpose of this practice.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    For the record, I can understand why someone would think St Peter's is in Charleston - on the YouTube link is says it's in the Diocese of Charleston. However, there are so few Catholics here that the entire state is a single Diocese. The farthest corner of the Diocese is 4+ hours' drive away from the office.
  • I welcome the opportunity to grapple with this unusual quandary, that of "the cocktail cantor." Mr. Coggins raises several points that I'd like to address to move the conversation forward: providing our parishes the best music we can.

    Playing while singing is an excellent exercise in musical multi-tasking which exponentially challenges ones kinesthetic and auditory skills. More than one theory or keyboard professor has advised their students to sing one part while playing another. The extent to which you make this activity public depends largely on your own abilities, your venue, and your "audience" - primarily God, but pragmatically, the wo/man who signs your check, and those who enable her/him to write you that check to begin with.

    At Saint Peter's, we worship in a mid-sized, acoustically generous space where singing without amplification is pro forma and the room naturally blends voices in a remarkable way. The organ, choir, and choral scholars are in a rear gallery on a relatively even plain and the placement of the organ console is in the midst of the singers or instrumentalists. The assembly faces the altar from three sides, and attends to the liturgical action within the sanctuary. They sing quite well from aural cues, and only rarely from visual cues. Our choral scholars are typically "down front" and face the assembly for the Liturgy of the Word, and keep their hands to themselves when leading congregational music. They would only be in the gallery if a choral "Kyrie" or "Gloria" were scheduled. And with this recording, there was a baritone choral scholar at the Cantor's stand, though his role in the psalm is hardly worth mentioning. He sang the antiphon like every other member of the assembly, and was seated while doing so.

    Being able to sing while I play has greatly expanded the choral/vocal literature I am able to offer our parish. I program duets, trios, or small groups with the "other(s)" in mind primarily, and very rarely (if ever) sing solos because I personally believe that an assembly is more animated when lead by more than one singer. Here's an example of two college students and me offering the "Domine Deus" from Bach's "B minor Mass" last summer (videoed by an 8 year old from my children's choir). I would be lying if I didn't admit that this was one of the highlights of my musical life, and how much I enjoyed preparing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbKLht2UNIc

    Mr. Cuggins brings up the point of financial remuneration, and I can only relate to how we operate at Saint Peter's. I offer my voice for worship as part of my overall ministry (along with the creation and editing of our parish YouTube channel): neither was asked of me and I offer them both freely and with a joyful heart. As a professional singer, I receive a separate fee when singing a wedding or funeral. This fee is factored in any estimate a family might receive from our parish office: should a substitute need to be engaged, families would likely need to hire two people: an organist and a singer. This ensures that the quality of music we offer as a parish remains consistent.

    "The musicians in the video are remarkable. They are an excellent example of what good church music should sound like." Somehow, I missed this sentence altogether. If this were the focus of his message, Mr. Coggins could have stopped right here. Do we bother making music at all, or make recordings, or maintain YouTube channels or MySpace pages with sound files for our own glory or as a means of communication with others and offering praise to our Creator?

    I am inspired by the words of Irenæus: "The glory of God is man, fully alive." I would admonish anyone who is so inclined to stop hiding their light under the bushels of fear or presumed good taste, and creatively live and play to their fullest extent. I would also offer a quote from someone somewhat outside the flock (though not the fold): "Do all the good you can. By all the means you can. In all the ways you can. In all the places you can. At all the times you can. To all the people you can. As long as ever you can." (John Wesley).
  • Somehow, I missed this sentence altogether.


    Clearly you didn't since you commented on it.

    If this were the focus of his message, Mr. Coggins could have stopped right here.


    I guess we just write messages differently, then. I don't think of them as having an overall focus, rather than a container of information.

    Do we bother making music at all, or make recordings, or maintain YouTube channels or MySpace pages with sound files for our own glory or as a means of communication with others and offering praise to our Creator?


    I would assume the latter reason, but if you can't take a compliment then I'll just keep them to myself.

    Look, none of my comments were insulting to any degree. Merely questions and a series of observations. There's a difference between constructive criticism and personal attacks. I'm not trying to "hide their light under the bushels of fear or presumed good taste".
  • Seeing the Bach makes me wonder how often Bach himself had to play continuo and sing as missing part himself!

    Great job, and the young musicians will never forget the chance to play such great music.
  • Thank you, kind sir! It's a privilege to bring great music to these students as well as to our community for worship and for concerts. If we can do it in Columbia, South Carolina, it can happen anywhere.
  • don roy
    Posts: 306
    I say you havent lived until you play the harold darke gloria, conduct the choir AND sing the tenor part.
    Ideal? heck no but when the alternative is consignment to SAB hell, you do what you must.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Don, you couldn't be more right. A couple of weeks ago we were severely short staffed (pun intended). I had three sopranos, one tenor and two basses -- so I sang falsettalto.

    You do what you have to do. And, well, what you *can* do. It certainly wouldn't have been pleasing to the purists; but if any of those had been around, I would have made them sing alto.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    I missed this comment the first time:

    Our choral scholars … keep their hands to themselves when leading congregational music.


    Made me laugh. It reminded me of Father Keyes' lecture at the 2009 Colloquium.
  • The Anglican overlap is making me feel right at home: As usual, Olbash is right again! DR, our schola and/or choir sings the Kyrie and Agnus Dei from Darke in E in Advent and Lent and the parish absolutely loves it. Sometimes singing tenor with the group is a chore, but more often than not, it's a pleasure when you just have to be a peppering agent when my other tenors are around. JDE, singing alto is an ENTIRELY other matter. There is no greater love...!