History of the Ordinaries
  • Hello,

    I am interested in learning more about the history and creation of the ordinaries, as we know them today. I have noticed that the dates of composition inside of each can vary by centuries. For example Mass IV has a Kyrie and a Gloria from the X century but the Sanctus is from the XI, and the Agnus Dei is from the XIII. Is there some book or reference material that explains how these were created? Sound like something Jeff O. might have researched or know about.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated

    David Deavy
  • The New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia offers information about each ordinary. Wikipedia is pretty helpful, too. This is about the text itself.

    Kyrie - New Advent / Wikipedia
    Gloria - New Advent / Wikipedia
    Credo - New Advent / Wikipedia
    Sanctus - a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13432a.htmNew Advent / Wikipedia
    Agnus Dei - New Advent / Wikipedia
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    David,

    I agree that a book on this subject is long overdo.

    Obviously, as you can see by the Lalande Library, Pothier adhered closely to the groupings in his 1884 Graduale.

    As you can also see by the Lalande Library, his groupings are, perhaps, influenced by the Rheims Cambrai edition, but NOT the same. They also differ substantially from the other collections (Pustet, Mechlin, etc.)

    I also believe that a few of Pothier's adaptations made it into the Vatican Edition, in spite of the Pontifical Commission's explicit wishes (we've discussed this on different CMAA threads).

    Some of the higher ups at Solesmes have hinted that they will soon release a facsimile of the MSS that Pothier favored, but I'm not holding my breath. This would be quite revealing.

    I think anyone who's looked at MSS of the middle ages and early Renaissance will agree that there is not really a strong tradition of grouping the Masses the same way the Editio Vaticana did.

    Chanted parts of the Ordinary (generally speaking) have always been mixed and matched. I've seen many collections from the Middle Ages where all the Agnus Dei's are together, and all the Kyrie's are together, etc. However, I've also seen collections similar to what Pothier did, where "collections" are grouped according to the FEAST (Doubles, Semi-Doubles, etc.)

    I think it's fair to say that the tradition of the GRADUALE (Introit, Gradual, Alleluia, Offertory, Communion) is much more consistent and goes back much further than do any traditions of "Ordinary Groupings" (that is, Mass Parts that form a "complete whole" like Mass VIII, or Mass XI or Mass V, etc.).

    I would also humbly suggest that constantly renaming and renumbering the Masses of the Vatican Edition by some collections published after the Second Vatican Council has led to needless confusion. That being said, the reality of the situation is that most of our Catholic Parishes, if they sing Latin Chant AT ALL, sing the Funeral Mass (all year!!!) and the Alleluia from the Easter Vigil as the Gospel Acclamation (all year!!!). There is much work to do . . . .
  • " ... Solesmes have hinted that they will soon release a facsimile of the MSS that Pothier favored ..."

    I would also wish a sort of "Kyriale neume" with neums under the square notation like GT has for propers. There surely have to be neumes for the pieces labeled X s. or XI s., otherwise they would not be identified.

    "... our Catholic Parishes, if they sing Latin Chant AT ALL, sing the Funeral Mass (all year!!!) and the Alleluia from the Easter Vigil as the Gospel Acclamation ..."

    And not to be forgotten the ubiquitous Mass VIII (I have nothing against it, BTW)
  • I've been working (okay, hypothesizing) under the impression that the groupings of the Kyriale are done by complexity and nothing else. The most complex Kyrie should be grouped with the most complex Sanctus and then designated for Easter. The simplest should be grouped together and designated for weekdays in Advent and Lent and masses of the dead. I'd be interested in knowing who grouped them.
  • Adding to what Jeffrey said: The Vatican Edition had a not which is translated in the Liber Usualis as:

    This Ordinary is NOT meant to be a matter of hard and fast rule :
    chants from one Mass may be used together with those from others, the
    Ferial Masses excepted. In the same way, in order to add greater solemnity,
    one or more of the following '' Chants ad libitum " may be employed.
  • This subject came up this summer at the Solesmes chant course. According to Dom Saulnier (what I have in my notes anyways), and also drawing from a few chant history texts, here's a few interesting things to mention-

    1) aside from the very recent Mass VIII (how recent?) many ordinaries are now thought to predate some of the propers. (This was news to me.) The reason they are not notated before square notation is that there was no need- they were passed down orally.
    2) they were grouped somewhat arbitrarily, with the exception of Mass
    I (Eastertide) and Mass XVIII (Requiem). These are thought to have been used together since ancient times, more so Mass I.
    3) because of the more or less arbitrary nature of the groupings, it is acceptable to group them according to the competence of the schola and/ or congregation.
    4) there are many (how many?) parts of the ordinary that had been poplular in various regions and in different centuries that did no make it into the Vatican edition.

    I do not mean to use the word 'arbitrary' with a negative connotation, btw. In order to restore the chant to more common use, Solesmes scholars and editors thought it advantageous to systematize the ordinaries, to make them more accessible to people reclaiming an aural tradition where there had not been (a widespread) one for some time. There is something practical and laudable to this, IMO.
    Especially after considering the monumental task undertaken by the
    Solesmes monks, I might be critical but remain loathe to criticize them.
  • Speaking of texts, I would suggest Dom Saulnier's 'Gregorian Chant, A Guide to it's History and Liturgy'.
    With respect to another translator's work (I forget his name), Dom Saulnier explicitly stated he recommended Dr. Mary Berry's translation as better conveying his original French text.
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    MaryAnn, I would second your comment on some .. "thought it advantageous to systematize the ordinaries". It is certainly a lot more convenient for me to say, "We're singing Kyrie IX" than to try and remember its name (if indeed it has one).
  • Hello,

    Thanks to all this is very helpful.

    1) Jeff - my small schola is working on Mass IV, and we have done parts of Mass XI & VIII, and I agree with your comment about the Requiem Mass it is almost depression, to know the beauty of the other Mass, if people just take the learn them. The men in my group really connected with the Agnus Dei from Mass IV it seemed to suit us well. I will look at the rare books section you mentioned.

    2) Mary Ann I just picked up the book you mentioned glanced through the index it looks helpful, and look forward to the read.

    David Deavy