David Haas,

Your idea of a forum, or some sort of constructive debate, intrigues me. I'd love to see something like that happen, perhaps here in Cleveland, with the support of one of the local colleges or universities?

Who can hear it? I can. Who wants to hear it? I do. Even if I disagree with it, or it makes me feel uncomfortable.

This interlude has been an experience we shall all learn from.

My comments at the beginning of this thread were influenced by the many times that I have been told that the church says things it does not say by various music directors. The many times which I was told firmly that chant is not appropriate music for the mass.

I was even told this after I gave a copy of "An English Kyriale" with tape recordings of all settings to them.
A fine gregorian plainsong book made by anglicans for the 1973 ICEL mass ordinary in english.
The issue was not about latin or english it was plainly against beauty and against what the church taught.

And the many times I was told that Mr. Haas music was appropriate and more ideal. I more and more clearly over the years knew this to not be true, yet what could I do?

The heart of the matter comes back to the Pope and the Bishops of the Church and their authority,
Through the combined influences of 20th century nationalism, 12th c crusades islamic philosophies, 15th c humanist scholasisticism/protestantism and 11th century gregorian reforms they were tempted to reshape the Latin Church.

They created this circumstance, they gave brother David the power to do what he did.
David Haas work was a symptom of a much larger problem, that is gradually being corrected.

For certain people, plainchant is one of the many interesting poptpourri to influence their ecletic aquarian musical mass mix.

There are a handful of "new age" and buddhist followers who sing plainchant but reject what it says and also sing various contradictory pagan musics shortly afterwards.

Just as for curious Hindus first encountering christianity, Jesus is is often viewed as one new "god" amongst many others to add to their pantheon of "gods". To a Hindu, Jesus Christ is not the sole only begotten son and 2nd person of the Trinity.

Just as to the leftover heterodox "spirit of vatican II" vanguard there can be no single authoritative tradition per local culture/nation. In its place a utopian quest to find recreate their imaginary early christian music ensues, most of which is odd modern folk rock gimmicks that not even Bob Dylan found remotely inspiring.

Excuses and complex ideaologies are made, but in the end, they are still wrong.

In many ways the ideas of of the secular Cold war entered the people of Church.

A sort of Catholic equivalent of communism is beginning to crumble.
The 2008 ICEL translation of the Mass is the Perestroika of our era.

Mr. Haas may yet convert to the true teaching of the Church regarding music.
At least now, some mistakes of the past are learned from. And we are not limited to sole usage of the colonialist latin language throughout the world. (which I felt was ridiculous, much as I love the traditional mass, I think that old german and slavonic should have become valid commplace western liturgical languages by the 12th century).

We live in a period of time where there is too little excommnication or reprimanding of those in error. This encourages many of us to do our best to fill this void by firmly adhereing to the truth as best we understand it.

Showing charity is one thing. Letting our brains fall out and cowering down in desperation to compromise is another.

In all my experience I have always found that lay people in the church in their hearts appreciate most whole heartedly the music that the church holds to be most appropriate in its official documents.

The dominant music publishers and the men who made them rich are largely irrelevant, they will be either be replaced or adapt.

Their is a sleeping giant waiting to be woken, most of the lay people are eager and willing to be led to greener liturgical pasture. All thats needed is education, prayer and holy leadership from those in authority.

This thread died a fairly dignified death a number of weeks ago. May it rest in peace.
But, for my friend Chris...."Ubi caritas est vera, Deus ibi est." No one advocated the practice of charity in those matters at the expense of their reason and faithfulness to Holy Mother Church.
But showing charity isn't just "one thing." According to First Corinthians, it is the only thing that lasts, that matters in the end. If we have no further need of faith or hope as saints, we still will be imbued and bask, and therefore need to share in God's love for us, and ours for Him.
Let's move on in love.

"All you need is love..." or so I have heard. ;-)

Francis, I'm not CharlesW, I didn't quote Lennon, nor have postured as a hippy "let it be" navel gazer.
I've asked everyone to drop the thread, because beating the horse into a carcass seems to say more about the one with the baseball bat than the dead horse.
We, as in you and I, are not in disagreement about what's true and real. Can you just move on and allow this episode to fade to black?