I mentioned at the beginning a friend of mine who gets paid $50 a service... This is at a parish whose weekly collection is occasionally FORTY THOUSAND dollars. (There are 6 weekend masses.) I kid you not. (That's a 4, with 4 zeros after it.)

Now, I would call THAT exploitation. (What else could the church be possibly spending that money on!?!)

But...for those of us trying to figure out how much we should accept at a church much smaller than that? I wonder what percentage of the budget would be the *max* we could expect?
Like my example given in my last post, if the church gets $3000 a week... they aren't going to be able to pay me 10% of the budget, which would be $150 each for 2 services. (I'm ending up with $75 each, for $150 total, which is 1/20th of the budget, and this church pays another organist/cantor for another Mass.)

I wonder what is fair for the musician to expect or hope for in similar situations? I don't want to exploit the church, and like has been oft' pointed out...most of us aren't in it for the money! If it's a church that's going to appreciate my music, and especially let me do more of what I want, then I'm going to tolerate less money.

"In too many cases I have observed that when a priest says he doesn't have the money, what he means is he isn't going to spend the money that he very well does have on liturgy and music."

Bingo. The money is ALWAYS there. Always. If there isn't money for music, there probably isn't money for anything else.

I'm frankly shocked at all the stipend musicians reporting. I'm salaried. Have been for the past six years. Wouldn't consider anything else, except as pick-up work. The church should have a paid music director, other organists hired as needed. A music director can oversee the whole program and lead it where it needs to be led. An organist showing up at Sunday will just always pick his favorite four hymns.

I don't have experience with the AU, though I have visited some other breakaway Anglican parishes before (namely in the Anglican Catholic Church). I can tell you that the organists I've heard didn't deserve to make a nickel, let alone a salary. If the parish is small, they do have to (proportionally) decrease their needs, and a lot of breakaway parishes (Anglican or otherwise) are usually quite small. A parish of 40 shouldn't expect to have five Sunday Masses, two Saturday Masses, and an organist and choir at all.

a married person with children should receive enough to support their family according to JP II. has anyone read that teaching?

don't remember

something about fair wages for a family

Laborem Exercens (1981): "Just remuneration for the work of an adult who is responsible for a family means remuneration which will suffice for establishing and properly maintaining a family and for providing security for its future. Such remuneration can be given either through what is called a family wage-that is, a single salary given to the head of the family fot his work, sufficient for the needs of the family without the other spouse having to take up gainful employment outside the home"

YRoT -
I was addressing kas, who renewed this discussion on 12th March.

This is not just an issue for musicians. In many (most?) parishes, if you were salaried in accord with the AGO guidelines for someone with a Master's degree, you would be making twice as much as any other lay staff member of the parish.

It's true that this is sometimes a matter of priorities, but it is so frustrating to me to see a parish of 2-3k families that only has volunteer musicians. However, this is not surprising, and culture and Catholic identity has been taking a hit for years now.

Sadly, how utterly and sadly pervasive this is, as I know from first-hand experience.

I have observed the same thing, CHGiffen. And I agree that this is part of Catholic culture that needs to change. This may be common knowledge, but I was once told by a knowledgable priest who was trying to change this himself - that this "habit" was due to a history of Orders doing quite a bit of work in parishes for free - so that the economic structure of the Church as a whole was dependant on volunteerism as a "line on the spreadsheet."

Having said that - I was also given a "fraternal correction" by a friend, who is a brilliant musician and was woefully underpaid as a D.M. - that volunteers who direct choirs (me, at the time) were seriously undermining the ability of professional Church musicians to earn a decent wage. I was a bit offended, but took it to heart and did approach the pastor for a part time salary, which he agreed to. $10,000.00 at the time - 1996 - for one mass, one or two rehearsals a week as needed -- at a parish that had a vibrant community that attended mass at the parish's historic church as well as a large community that preferred the "Main Church". All Holy Week liturgies were held at the Main Church - I planned and executed one of these and helped at the main church when needed for special liturgies, i.e. Scout Sunday.

I remained at that salary for several years and was eventually raised $2000.00 when a new pastor came in. I left the position in 2006 - w/same duties, (having turned down the D.M. slot for the whole parish as I couldn't be away from the kids on the weekends.)
at the salary of $12,000.00. Once I was salaried, my businessman husband (after putting up with my volunteering for 5 years) persuaded me not to take on any more liturgies during the year,without asking for reasonable compensation.

I should note that the pastor - at my suggestion - did call the local AGO chapter president and discussed my duties and my salary with him. The AGO person told him that I was woefully underpaid, but the Pastor did not take any action - even though he was honest with me about the conversation, to his credit.

Last month I polled some friends who are directors in parishes that pay pretty well in the DC area and asked them what a reasonable salary would be for a DM slot in a parish right outside DC. They advised $35 - $45 k for a mid-size parish right outside of DC as a starting salary, with benefits. But - I have 19 yrs. of experience, a proven record of success and plan to ask for a rather "low" salary for this area, because I have to hire an organist and the Pastor is also allowing me to hire an assistant who is a trained classical violinist, is learning to conduct and will take responsibility for one of the choirs as well as play the violin for every liturgy. It's a rare situation - but it's the only way I will take the job as the parish is a hot mess with a lot of infighting and their mass attendance is dismal. We'll see.

That is simply detestable.

I was referring to the $13 and $20 per liturgy-if I understood your post correctly.
Did I?

If two given people are equal in ability, talent, accomplishment and are expected to fulfill the same duties, there should be no difference in their salaries just because one of them is married.

Umhh, no.

In the eyes of the Church--which is far different than in the eyes of secular society--raising a family is important, indeed. Therefore, the Church demands that those who are raising families get paid more, according to the size of their families.

Part time, and nowhere near AGO guidelines. Thankfully, I've got two jobs (I teach at a Catholic school, and I am DM in another town).

Ultimately there are a lot of music directors that make the amounts listed.
There are also a lot of music directors that make more than the amounts listed.
There are also a lot of music directors that make a tremendous amount less than the amounts listed.

If you're unhappy with your salary, find a new position.
If you can't find a new position and are still unhappy with your salary, consider a new career.
If you don't want to find a new career, then improve your skills (whether that be musical or interviewing/interpersonal).

More money doesn't necessarily mean happiness. Find the position that makes you happy where you can make a good living. It's out there.

Statistics are a strange animal. Consider the following hypothetical list of 13 peoples' salaries:
$0.00
$2,000.00
$3,000.00
$5,000.00
$8,000.00
$12,000.00
$17,000.00
$23,000.00
$30,000.00
$38,000.00
$47,000.00
$75,000.00
$100,000.00

The average is $27,692.31
The median is $17,000.00

Now consider this - there are 5 "people" on this list who make $8k or less. They see that the median is more than double their salary and the average is nearly 3 times their salary.
Yet, only 38% of the "people" in this list make more than the average.

So what?!? Just keep in mind the difference between average and median. A few extreme salaries can significantly impact the average. The median is less impacted by a few extremes. I often wonder if these surveys exclude the many folks who's Music Job has a salary of $0.00. If those folks were included, what might the numbers say...

They see that the median is more than double their salary and the average is nearly 3 times their salary.

Actually, the average is MORE than 3 times their salary, even for the one making $8,000, since 3 x $8,000 = $24,000.

Note also that, as is typical with skewed income distributions, the top two people in this example earn a total of $175,000 which is very nearly 50% of the total income ($360,000) earned by all 13 people.

Looking up from the bottom, the bottom 4 people earn only a total of $18,000, just 5% of the total amount earned by everyone.

I think a lot of people have truly settled in a location and that can be very limiting, regarding opportunities. Always a lot of tradeoffs in life!

Very true. If we all abandoned the parishes for the great churches and cathedrals, music would likely deteriorate even more in the parish churches. Someone has to do those jobs, and do them well. It's not all about money. I suspect the stresses of dealing with even more people might be greater in the cathedrals. Worth it? I am not sure.

How much do I get paid? Not enough.
How much should I get paid? About twice what I'm getting now.

Preach on, brother. You speak the truth!

Also, I might note that the NPM Scale (the one with all the adding and math) almost always will bring a Catholic Musician a higher salary level than the AGO Scale. The AGO Scale, I think, usually imagines Protestant churches with one or two choirs and one or two Sunday services. Most full-time Catholic jobs have two or three choirs and far more Masses.

I am paid $100 per service. This includes once-weekly rehearsal, Sundays, weddings, funerals, and every additional service for Christmas and Easter. This year the church is having an early 4:00 Christmas Eve service and then the 11pm service, so I'll get an additional $100 which is nice. I've also played violin for some of their other functions and made extra money doing that.

Sure I wish the job paid more, but it's already proven to lead to other opportunities and that is important to me. Someone might know someone else who needs wedding music, or whatever else, and they recommend me- Bam, more money made!

I don't expect my position to be my primary source of income, as most of that comes from my orchestral gigs and other places. It's a nice supplement, and I work with really fantastic people who are passionate about music, and honestly I don't think there's any amount of money that could pull me away from that. As they say, if you do what you love for work it's a vacation every day!

I am only an organist, and I am paid $70 per Mass and $35 for each rehearsal with the choir, so September-May I guess I get $105 per Mass, and in $70 in the summer.

Music Leadership (director, conductor, performer) is often a position where the church requires a specialized degree as a condition of employment. There are similar expectations for the Pastor and Director of Education. These degrees aren't cheap to obtain. Thus, the wages for such skilled positions should be appropriate.

I fear that the high volume of "volunteer" leadership has skewed the expectation of the Catholic Church leadership's market rate for such skilled labor.

I wonder how things would be if all degree-holding "volunteers" required a salary. If they are so moved to volunteer their time and talent, then they can tithe 100% of their pay back to the church. By doing this, the church has an accurate assessment of what it really costs to have the staff on hand. If this loving volunteer should have to move to another town, the church would already know what to expect when seeking a replacement, who might not be so giving as their predecessor.

As a volunteer with a specialized degree doing staff-level work for free, you are devaluing your talent, skill, and knowledge and that of your colleagues.

I recognize that there are a number of "non-degreed" volunteers out there, but I am thinking about just the "volunteers" with a specialized degree.

FidemInFidebus, your example at your church is exactly what my point is about. Church finance councils and leadership need to know what it really costs to deliver what they are accustomed to. As a music minister who requires a salary and tithes it back, the church budgets and finances will reflect the actual costs, but have offsetting revenue. I'm sure it is not perfect net $0 with taxes, but it is better than either alternative (purely free labor, or fully paid without any tithe). It is better for both involved. The individual doesn't have to put "volunteer" on their resume, either. They are being paid for their skill and work. They just choose to put that income directly back into the church.

RJ, are you then saying that salaried organist/choirmaster positions are in fact quite rare in Australia?

I never understand people getting paid per service, as though that's all we do is play for the service and go home.

RJ, are you then saying that salaried organist/choirmaster positions are in fact quite rare in Australia?

I never understand people getting paid per service, as though that's all we do is play for the service and go home.

This is also the case in Canada. In my home Diocese - quite a large one - there were 2 salaried full-time musicians.

When all is said and done, we complain, but this country is the best for church music employment. There are simply very few full time positions in europe. All the cathedral organists that I know of have to have a second ir third job to make ends meet.