Graduale Romanum translations
  • cantorconvert
    Posts: 79
    My question has to do, not with English chant or English substitutes for the Graduale Romanum, but rather with understanding the latin texts themselves. Is there somewhere I can find those texts in English?
    My background is that of a solo singer, and for foreign language opera and art song, there are multitudes of books published that have translations for all those foreign words. We are also trained to do word for word translations ourselves out of the dictionary. This makes me wonder if anything similar exists for this church Latin.

    So is there:
    a. a book which has the English versions of the Graduale Romanum texts (to my understanding the English translation of the Roman Missal does not have the same antiphon texts).
    b. a good Latin dictionary that someone with only a limited knowledge of Latin grammar could use to understand these texts?

    The English Gregorian Missal has those nice translations, but as far as I can tell, the Graduale Romanum exists only in Latin.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Since the Gregorian Missal has the Sunday Masses and the major feast days from the Graduale, that covers most of what you need.

    The part not covered consists of saints' days, some weekdays, votive Masses, and common Masses.

    It might be worth your while to do some independent study in ecclesiastical Latin. The textbook by Collins from Catholic University Press is good.
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    An old-fashioned hand missal will have all of that; unfortunately, it is arranged according to the old calendar. An airtight way around that is to have an old Graduale Romanum: look up the piece there in the index, this will lead you to its location in the liturgical year; you can then look at the translation in the hand missal. These are being republished now because of increased demand for the old rite.

    Another way is to Google the first few words of your text; in most cases you will get the text in the book of the scripture that it belongs to, then you can consult that book in 'English. In some cases you can get a direct translation.
  • SamuelDorlaque
    Posts: 318
    If you can find a copy of the Saint Andrew Daily Missal, printed in England in the late 1950's you will find beautiful
    English translations and scriptural references for almost everything in the Liber.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Also for word for word translations I use this, http://ablemedia.com/ctcweb/showcase/wordsonline.html

    It's not easy to use Latin dictionary without some knowledge in grammar. This free online dictionary gives definition of the word in any form. Not all the codes are explained, but if you just want to know the definition, they are not so crucial.
  • cantorconvert
    Posts: 79
    thank you, that website will really be helpful
  • BachLover2BachLover2
    Posts: 330
    http://mysite.verizon.net/missale/
  • A Sinner
    Posts: 8
    I'm a late-comer to this discussion, but I too am looking for an English translation of the Graduale Romanum antiphons. I would like to compose original music for them. I have already composed many, only to discover, recently, that the proper antiphons appearing in English in many worship aids are not translations of the Graduale, but rather Antiphons to be spoken when none are sung!
    Is there an OFFICIAL English translation of the actual GR antiphons for a composer to use?
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    Sinner, no there is not.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,416
    A Sinner - there is no official translation of the propers. This may be a boon, since it gives us some linguistic freedom while being faithful to the Latin - and doesn't burden us with the inept, artless or truncated versions which normally come from Catholic officialdom.
    There are several options:
    1) Use the ones, sometimes inadequate, in the Gregorian Missal
    2) Follow the scriptural references in the Graduale Romanum and use the translation from your choice of Catholic Bibles
    (There may be a copyright hurdle with the above)
    3) Do your own translation
    4) Use the Anglican Use Gradual (no copyright problem)
    5) Use the Palmer & Burgess Plainchant Gradual (no copyright problem)
    (For 4 and 5 above, you can substitute modern pronouns and make other grammatical alterations to 'modernise' the text if you think it seemly so to do.)
    6) Samuel Dorlaque's suggestion is a good one. There are a variety of such missals which could be useful.
  • A Sinner
    Posts: 8
    Thank you! I will pursue those many fine suggestions and pray that no new "official" translation surfaces!
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    YES THERE IS AN OFFICIAL TRANSLATION,
    at least for the Sundays.

    As I have shown at
    http://musicasacra.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2736#Item_35
    the five propers (Introit, Gradual, Alleluia, Offertory, Communion)
    existed in English in 1964 in a Missal that sat on the Altar to be used by the Priest
    and therefore the translations had to have been approved.

    That people chose/choose to ignore them is a separate matter.
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    In the Ordinary Form, for those antiphons that correspond between the Graduale and the Missale (such as the Introit for Christmas Midnight Mass, Ps 2:7 "Dominus dixit ad me"), there are, at least in part, official translations.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,416
    There are rubrics, and articles in GIRM, which stipulate certain texts (such as the Psalm) which must be the approved ones.
    Are there such stipulations regarding the 'approved propers' mentioned above?
  • Jacques PerrièreJacques Perrière
    Posts: 139
    Thanks to Solesmes and CMAA:

    1) If I had to find an English translation to Graduale Romanum hymns (1974) I would look first at the English Gregorian Missal (1990) which has the Kyriale and Propers translated. Both follow the same Ordinary Form post-Vatican II calendar.

    2) Another source of English translation is the Mass and Vespers with Gregorian chant book (1957); it has a Tridentine calendar but you can find your Propers in the alphabetical table index (book page 2047 or PDF page 2139).

    3) A Latin dictionary specific to Church Latin terminology would be useful. Try the Dictionary of the Psalter (1928).

    I know that the 1st and 3rd books exist as real printed books; Solesmes and Lulu.com sell them, among others. I don't know for the 2nd one.
    I have listed them on this page.

    Regards.
    Jacques
  • Marc Cerisier
    Posts: 537
    YES THERE IS AN OFFICIAL TRANSLATION,
    at least for the Sundays.

    As I have shown at
    http://musicasacra.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2736#Item_35
    the five propers (Introit, Gradual, Alleluia, Offertory, Communion)
    existed in English in 1964 in a Missal that sat on the Altar to be used by the Priest
    and therefore the translations had to have been approved.

    That people chose/choose to ignore them is a separate matter.


    Wow! Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I have a copy of the 1964 Roman Missal on my bookshelf, and had never noticed that! Indeed a good source for translations.
  • JKWJKW
    Posts: 40
    Is there any update about the official texts of the Sunday propers? The translations from Solesmes as used by Adam Bartlett in his Simple English Propers are quite nice. I also have the Gregorian Missal published in 2012 which uses a translation from the International Committee on English in the Liturgy.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    There is no official translation of the any of the EF Propers, but we have plenty of translations that have the imprimatur etc.

    In German there are now 3 different translations, this includes the new translation produced by the FSSP.

    In English we have at least two non-literal translations as required under the old laws in force when Gueranger was writing his liturgical year.
    Later translations could be literal and we have up to two version in the St. Andrews Missal, and at least another 6 more, found in various hand Missals. Many use the Douay Rheims translation.
    Of course you could use modern books to find translations. but as with any translation they may not be good, or they may be written in a way that makes production of musical versions almost impossible.

    In French I know of 2 translations but I suspect their are a handful more.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 998
    The Lumen Christi Missal has approved English translations for the Introit, Offertory and Communion antiphons from the Graduale Romanum for Sundays and Feasts. When the Graduale antiphons are identical to the Missal antiphons, the translation from The Roman Missal are used, and when they differ or are absent, a new translation is given that (if I'm correct) received an imprimatur.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    @smvanroode

    All the translations I have mentioned above have an Imprimatur at the beginning of the book. But all that tells us is there is no obvious error. An Imprimatur is not the same as the approval needed for a book of chant Propers.
  • JKWJKW
    Posts: 40
    Is there an official document that indicates which psalm verses should be used with the antiphons?

    Also, where can I find various chant tones from the historical church tradition?
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    There is this Semi official Processional http://www.liturgyoffice.org.uk/Missal/Music/ProcessionalBook.pdf which gives psalm verse references.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    JKW,

    The chant tones are in the Liber Usualis.
  • Marc Cerisier
    Posts: 537
    JKW—ICEL has released an Antiphonary which provides verses for all of antiphons in the present RM.

    http://www.romanmissal.org.uk/content/download/29270/202417/file/antiphonary.pdf
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,802
    Marc's link appears to give the sources of the antiphon texts, whereas I understood JKW's question to be about the ad lib. verses between the antiphons. Those for Communions are very conveniently given in Communio but the rest are identified in the 1974 Graduale Romanum. The verse numbering is a bit tricky, as I've remarked before.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    The Introduction from the processional I mentioned above lists official sources for the verses, which are scant.
    zzintro.docx
    7K
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