Olbash, thanks so much. Although I'm sure Mr. Robinson is quite different than his immediate predecessors, that could be a good thing so long as the essentials are fostered (the "treasury of sacred music", etc.) I for one am much different as a musician from my predecessor, for whom I have great respect. I'd like to think we have the same goals, but achieve them differently.

If you end up speaking to Mr. Robinson, or whoever handles recording of the choir, Olbash: I always have a sense that the boys are (on recordings online) mic'd too closely. There are some things I hear that don't jive with how I hear the acoustic is at St. Paul, etc., that might be fixed by more "room" in the recording. I do hear the brighter, more reedy sound I associate with Westminster/Terry, too, but it can be hard to capture on a recording.

Here's to the continued success of programs like St. Paul: a lot of us hope that someday we get something going like it at our places, God willing!

It is totally illegal to print out and use this book without the permission of the copyright holder of the book.

It is rare for a church to be sued for copyright infringement, but it has happened and is more likely when the copyright holder, like this one, has the intent of republishing a new version.

I would destroy all that you have done and write and ask permission to copy and share in your group specific portions. They may give permission which would make it legal.

I would suggest that everyone be familiar with this article.

Having spent 4 years at a church with no music budget and two file cabinets of illegal copies which I threw away, I worked under this restriction and there were things i really wanted to do that I could have copied but did not. As a result I ended up with a core of things that turned into The Catholic Choirbook Anthology I...which IS legal to download and copy and share.

Would that more music becomes available like this! And it does happen here!

I still get into a section of files I have not looked at very closely and will find some of those copies. The music I have placed in the files is all either purchased or public domain. I couldn't tell you that everything that was there before my time as DM is all legal, although I have thrown the illegal copies out when I found them.

How about everyone worrying about themselves instead of what other people are doing?

BACS doesn't own all the material in the book. Many of the hymn texts, tunes, and harmonizations and psalm antiphons are copyrighted material held by other publishers. We'd have to get their agreement. It would be a substantial job.

The copyright issue is a bit murky. "BACS Publishing Company" is listed as the copyright holder for the bulk of the hymnal. BACS Publishing Company has not really existed in any shape or form for quite some time, and BACS itself (Boston Archdiocesan Choir School) no longer exists as an entity. (It's now St. Paul's Choir School.) If a print-on-demand of the original book is legal -- and if CMAA folks were willing to do the legwork -- I can assure you that the folks at the choir school would cooperate.

Surely BACS the school still exists: its name has changed.

St. Paul's Choir School.

Shortly before his death, Theodore Marier signed over the rights of the hymnal (he was, in essence, BACS Publishing Company) to Boston Boy Choir, Inc., which Liam notes is still an active corporate entity on the rolls, regardless of changes in name to the Choir School he founded. I know that there is great impatience to get this book revised or to reprint the 1983 edition. I share that impatience. However, I pray that Dr. Marier's legacy (which includes the hymnal and his chant-based compositions, inspired by his infinite knowledge of the Solesmes Method, using the Ward Method as a teaching tool to reinforce it) may be preserved and shared with a new generation.

But you see, I did meet and work with Theodore Marier, in a variety of ways. I was a student in his summer Ward Method training classes and chant practicum held at Catholic University. He supported my work to teach the Ward Method for Catholic schools in Lewiston, Maine for a number of years. It is the link between the Ward Method, Dom Andre Mocquereau, Dom Joseph Gajard, Justine Ward and Theodore Marier which forms my opinion of the man, his work and where Catholic church music and liturgy should be.
He is a giant, not a mere parish musician, and looms as a towering figure in Catholic church music for modern times. His greatest gift to the world, Hymns, Psalms and Spiritual Canticles has no equal today and it is not likely there will ever be. When I first discovered St. Paul's Church in Cambridge, the choir school, the Ward Method and Theodore Marier back in the mid-1980s, the experience became a lightning rod for me personally and completely transformed my future direction and approach to church music. It is like I had found salvation and realized for the first time, that this is what the second Vatican council really meant in its reforms of the liturgy.
I experienced the Mass at St. Paul's back in those days shortly before Marier retired. It was such an incredible eye and ear opener, achieved through the steadfast work and direction of this one man. Those who have not experienced the music and Mass under his guidance have nothing with which to compare to in how the program exists today. After Marier left, the whole overall program deteriorated somewhat during the tenure of John Dunn. I attended Mass at St. Paul's following Marier's departure and was very surprised by the difference. The Ward Method sound was still there to a certain extent, but in a state of decline.
I cannot agree with any commentary which fails to recognize that the departure of the Ward Method from any music curriculum is indeed a "clear tragedy". One cannot also make intelligent conversation about the superiority of other teaching schemes without first having observed intimately the results obtained through this marvelous method, a point which I tried to make during a conversation with someone from the music education faculty at the University of Michigan. It is amazing outside of the world of Catholicism how many music educators have absolutely no knowledge of the existence of the Ward Method. Upon close examination, it takes little time to see the great benefits from the focused and progressive direction of Justine Ward's creation in comparison to the aimless meanderings of the Kodaly system or the "tonka toys" approach to the Orff method. It is no wonder then that Theodore Marier quickly adopted this system in the training of the boys at the choir school!
There also can be no doubt or question regarding the beauty and effectiveness of boy choir training and cathedral music coming out of England. The choral tradition in Great Britain is clearly the best in the world for both adults and children. I have often wondered whether the British are born with a special genetic makeup which make them such superb singers. But for me it is simply a question of the appropriateness for imposing an Anglican based approach on a solidly based system that had already been in place, steeped in the Catholic tradition of Gregorian chant. Evidence of my concern can be seen from listeners reactions who are hearing a "gutsy" or "brighter, more reedy sound", something the Ward Method eschews.
I agree wholeheartedly with the comment concerning lack of trained personnel in the United States to lead such programs which, unfortunately, is quite true. Now that, is the real tragedy, in which one must go to a foreign country in order to find qualified leadership! However, there is a wealth of choir schools connected to Anglican worship throughout the world. Can the same be said for Catholic based programs? I would rather doubt it. Besides St. Paul's, the new program at the Cathedral of the Madeleine in Salt Lake City is the only additional Catholic choir school in the United States that I believe exists. I would love to be wrong on this point. In Canada, I am aware of the program at St. Michaels in Toronto. Quite probably, the finest program in Canada is at Oratoire St. Joseph in Montreal with its Les Petits Chanteurs du Mont Royal, its long time leader and choir director, Gilbert Patenaude, retiring this June.
With the very small amount of Catholic choir schools in existence today, it behooves us to think long and hard about taking one of the finest and oldest examples around in a completely new and different direction.
On another note, to cast aside Theodore Marier's psalmody in favor of a "new norm", is clearly a mistake. His original chant-styled settings of the psalms along with the English language chant-styled Mass ordinaries form a cohesive whole and stylistic unity to the liturgy.

There are no recordings on YouTube, to my knowledge. Forgive me for the shameless self-promotion, but you can listen to some of the Marier psalms sung by my choir at the Church of Our Saviour, New York City. We provide webcasts of our Sunday liturgy on our website.

Sorry, I couldn't figure out how to link it correctly, I guess. When you get to the church homepage, just add /webcasts and you should find a catalog of our Sunday Masses.

I have to agree with the "Tonka toys" depiction of the implementation of Orff. It's not that his method is bad in itself, but it is overused in a lazy way by many teachers.

Paul,

Thanks for directing us to the Church of Our Savior webcasts. I randomly clicked the 29th Sunday of Ordinary Time and was immediately transported to an earlier vintage of St. Paul's, Cambridge. Your Vierne "Lied" was lovely, by the way.

Thank you P.J. for the psalms at Mass links. You should put them on YouTube! I will be listening to many more of Mass. Why is Savior spelled different on you're website? P

Again, @bfranck, I think it's profoundly unhelpful to compare the best example of a particular situation to the worst of another...that's why it is a "cavalier" comparison. I know many fine musicians who came up through Kodaly, Orff, or Dalcroze: they may not have the emphases that I would prefer, but that doesn't discount their training. Many of them are also fine singers.

I think most of us on here mourn the virtual extinction of the Ward Method, but its creator didn't do it any favors by keeping an iron grip on its rights and use. In a profound irony, most of us who are trying to carry on the chant and polyphonic heritage of the Church are able to do so PRECISELY BECAUSE of the gratuitousness of many others, including many members of this board.

It should be noted that Dr. Marier was a superior musician whose gifts and abilities went well beyond the music of the Church. (Many don't realize that he was director of the marching band at Boston College in the 1930s.) While he trained and conducted the boy choir at St. Paul's, Cambridge beginning in the late 1940s, he didn't start the Choir School there until 1963, at which time he was 50 years old. Indeed, it certainly was not by pure chance that Dr. Marier used the Ward Method. The Choir School was the laboratory by which he tested and refined it. Having gone through the Choir School, not with Dr. Marier, but under his successor, John Dunn, I can attest to the success of the Ward Method, not only in teaching children to sing chant according to the principles of Solesmes Method, but in teaching young children the fundamentals of musicianship (pitch, rhythm, meter, etc.). The real success of it, for me, was evidenced when I passed out of several semesters of sight singing because of my skills in solfege, etc. through the Ward Method. (N.B. I have no experience with other teaching methods and am not speaking for or against them.)

I concur with Dr. Franck that the finest boys/mens choir in Canada is at l'Oratoire St.-Joseph, Montreal. I would, however, go further, and state without hesitation that this is the finest boys/mens choir to be found anywhere in North America.
Of course, the sung services at the Oratory are all in French; so the music used is entirely different from the music used in American churches (or churches in English-speaking parts of Canada); it's the same style of music you will hear in Paris (e.g., Notre Dame Cathedral). I was required to perform this style of music many years ago, when I was organist of Holy Name of Jesus in New York City (along with English and Spanish --- but that's another story!). When Raymond Daveluy was le titulaire of the Oratory, the interplay between the superlative choir and the great Beckerath organ was indeed thrilling. Alas, Daveluy has been gone from there for more than 10 years.
Dr. Franck mentions having attended the performance in Toronto of the great oratorio "Das Buch mit sieben Siegeln" by Franz Schmidt in 2002. I was also present at that performance, which featured Ben Heppner in the role of the Evangelist (St. John).
While in Toronto, I had occasion to attend the German-language Mass at St. Patrick's Church. They use the hymns and other music you would hear in Germany. No great boys/mens choir, though.

Warning: Tangent.

Speaking of St. Joseph's Oratory - if any organists here have the time to check out the Main Organ of the Oratory - a five-manual, tracker action, Beckerath - it's well worth it.

I have long ago checked out the Beckerath at St. Joseph's Oratory, Montreal.
I gave a marathon (2-hour) recital there on August 4, 1999. That year, the "theme" of the summer concert series was Franz Schmidt. Inasmuch as I was the foremost proponent in North America of Schmidt's organ music, I was invited, by the organists Raymond Daveluy and Rachel Laurin. Got a rave review the next day in La Presse, the main newspaper in Montreal.
It was Daveluy, personally, who chose Beckerath to be the builder of the organ in the (then-new) Basilica. He did so after paying a visit to Cleveland and hearing Beckerath's new organ there. As I recall, Beckerath had some training in France; so his instrument at the Oratory has many French characteristics. I should know: I have performed on it.
It's interesting that Noel Mander (the British organ builder) studied with Beckerath.
You can find a superb example of his work at the Church of St. Ignatius Loyola on Park Avenue in New York City.
Oh: following my 1999 recital (which ended about 10 p.m.), Daveluy and Laurin took me out to a late-night supper at a swank restaurant. That sort of hospitaliy is rare indeed. I recently gave a recital on the West Coast, and the organist afterwards just walked out without a word and locked the doors behind him!
Incidentally: the Beckerath has recently been completely restored by a firm in Quebec.
But a permanent titulaire still has not been appointed (following what appears to have been the dismissal of Daveluy's successor, Philippe Belanger). Currently, the organ performances are being managed by Jacques Boucher, organist of St. Jean-Baptiste and his son.

The point that I am trying to make for which "BruceL" does not seem to ascertain from my comments, St. Paul's Choir School should not be abandoning Ward Method training in favor of some other training scheme which may provide questionable results, or at the very least be less effective. Theodore Marier invested a lot of time and energy in championing this method because he knew full well of its potential. Because Marier's greatness and stature as a musician looms larger than life, the Ward Method should remain the dominant training system at St. Paul's. It is more than likely that the singers/musicians "BruceL" knows trained by other methods, would have succeeded in spite of whatever system was used because of their natural God-given talents and abilities.

dear CharlesW: M. Daveluy was quite cosmopolitan. He wasn't going to let the mere fact that Beckerath was located in Germany stand in the way of procuring the finest organ possible! And, as I said, the organ that resulted has many French characteristics.
It's really an extraordinary instrument, located in a building with extraordinary acoustics.

Which city is that?
I recorded major works of Franz Schmidt way back in 1974, at Christ Church Cathedral in St. Louis. That was on an Aeolian-Skinner organ. Released the next year on an LP as Lyrichord 7276. Long out of print, but copies can still be found in the music libraries of some major cities (such as New York). I have CDs of my performances of Franz Schmidt in Vancouver, B.C., Washington DC National Cathedral, and Notre Dame Cathedral, Paris, but these have never been released commercially. The commercial recording companies were not interested. Michael Barone of PipeDreams was dissatisfied with the technical sounds of the recordings, so declined to program them.
Sonic perfection, it seems, takes precedence over great music!
The major Beckerath in the United States is at St. Paul's R.C. Cathedral in Pittsburgh, PA.
There is just one in New York City --- St. Michael's Episcopal Church, but that is a minor Beckerath, in my opinion.

What type of organ was there at St. Paul Choir School? It was a large orchestral organ, or a French style organ? Thanks,
Phil (my user name is change because of some confusion)

Thanks Liam.

I think a more good of a question to ask is what organ St. Paul had when the hymnal was made. Also, how good was the choir in your opinions?

Thank you everyone,
Phil