Timeliness matters
  • amanda.palisteramanda.palister
    Posts: 82
    Has anyone successfully and effectively instituted a timeliness policy? 7 sharp means different things to different people it seems.

    A tub of the best kettle corn this side of the Mississippi delivered at 8pm sharp via singing telegram by the light of the full moon at your next rehearsal for best answer!!!!
  • Chrism
    Posts: 873
    Anyone who shows up after the Postlude can't sing at that Mass, period. No exceptions, and the rule will be strictly enforced. ;-)
  • amanda.palisteramanda.palister
    Posts: 82
    What about rehearsal? Aside from enforcing a mandatory "one push up for every minute late" which would push the majority of my ensemble into rehabilitative care....
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    I always do a little comedy routine / announcements at 7, start rehearsal at 7:05-7:08, and end 5-8 minutes late.

    I never have more than 1 person late at a time... They like the comedy too much.
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    Start at 7. Period. Don't go back and review for people that are late. Once they realize they're missing out on what happens at the beginning of rehearsal, they'll make it a point to show up on time.

    If you push your start time back to 7:05 or 7:10, they'll realize it and won't show up until 7:15.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Even if you're the only person in the room, start warmups when the clock strikes the time.

    Also- make sure there is no wasted time during rehearsal. Leadership that does not respect its own time cannot expect timeliness from others.
  • amanda.palisteramanda.palister
    Posts: 82
    Chrism,
    How do you enforce the "can't sing at that Mass" policy after they've already shown up Post lude? Do you barricade the door with the organ? Duct tape their piehole?

    The unfortunate backlash of course would be the hijacking of our sound system by the mutinous outcasts, thus subjecting the congregation to untold horrors! 50 verses of Sing to the Mountains for instance...
  • amanda.palisteramanda.palister
    Posts: 82
    Matthew,

    I would pay to hear your routine! Is it on YouTube? It should be...
  • amanda.palisteramanda.palister
    Posts: 82
    Adam,

    When I sing alone, I sing a-loooooone. "Nobody knows the troubles I've seen, nobody knows my sorrow..."
  • amanda.palisteramanda.palister
    Posts: 82
    Andrew,

    Ding ding ding!!!!
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    I'm also in the camp of "start on time, no matter what." And that helps to build up the peer pressure when others look at late-comers funny.

    My practice room is set up so that people have to enter in front of the group, they can't sneak in the back. And I also visibly track attendance of every person, so they know that at least *I* see it as important.

    But .. but ... Let's offer some charity, too. This ISN'T the only thing going on in peoples' lives, especially if you have practice on a weekday evening. So help people to know this is important, but don't crucify them for small mistakes.
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    There's also the option of beginning rehearsal with prayer.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,115
    Well, one way would be to adapt the "Catholic penalty box": seat people back to front, so that the later you come, the more close to the director they sit....
  • amanda.palisteramanda.palister
    Posts: 82
    Doug,

    That goes without saying :)
  • amanda.palisteramanda.palister
    Posts: 82
    Liam,

    You say that is if it were a bad thing!
  • amanda.palisteramanda.palister
    Posts: 82
    Carl,

    I am reminded of the hymn:

    Where charity and love prevail there God is ever found:
    Brought here together by Christ's love by love are we thus bound.

    With grateful joy and holy fear his charity we learn;
    Let us with heart and mind and soul now love Him in return.

    Forgive we now each other's faults as we our faults confess,
    and let us love each other well in Christian holiness.

    Let strife amoung us be unknown; let all contention cease;
    be God's the glory that we seek; be ours His holy peace.

    Let us recall that in our midst dwells Christ, His only Son;as members of His body joined we are in Him made one.

    For love excludes no race or clan that names the Savior's name;
    his family embraces all whoses Father is the same.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    I try to be reasonable about it. Our church is not small, but for as long as I can remember, most of the work rests on the shoulders of the willing few. Some of our members do other things, for example, the gentleman who drives the bus for elderly and handicapped members so they can attend mass. He's 5 minutes late, and that's fine with me. Most who are late generally have a good enough reason, so I don't beat anyone over the head about it.
  • amanda.palisteramanda.palister
    Posts: 82
    Charles,

    Yes...we all try to be reasonable...but unfortunately there comes a point when the entire agenda is disrupted by those who consistently and chronically march to the beat of their own drum.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    I learned two things from a director when I was about 7 year old, and am still shocked when I work with singers -- even professionals -- who still haven't figured these things out:

    1) Five minutes early is ten minutes late.

    2) The only reason to miss a performance (dress rehearsal, etc.) is a death in the family, and that death must be your own.
  • JoeSartoten
    Posts: 10
    I understand the importance of punctuality, but only for a professional choir. I've been in the business. However, the majority of our choirs are not professional. For heaven's sake, give them a break and let them sing. It's JUST a four hymn sandwich, it's not like you're rendering Conciliar truth to the congregation. With all due respect to the liturgy, it's not doing us any good to strain gnats when somebody is late. At least they are there and giving you some of their time.

    If, perhaps, I worked for a priest who was more serious about music at Mass, I would make a bigger deal out of being on time. Until then if you can't get there on time, get there when you can.
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    The problem with telling them 6:45 and then starting at 7:00 is that people pick up on this quite quickly. Like after two practices. It gives the messages:
    * When you give a time, it's not the REAL time
    * If you show up at 6:45, the first 15 minutes is going to be a waste of time
    * You're willing to "punish" those who follow the rules in order to give the late-comers a lot of leeway.

    2 or 3 minutes I can understand. 15 is not being respectful of the on-timers.
  • BachLover2BachLover2
    Posts: 330
    incantu: yes! yes! yes!
  • kathyf
    Posts: 21
    My own choir director has the solution to this and any other problem his singers might pose. It's called:

    LTWK
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 994
    Start on time, finish on time, don't waste time yourself. (I'm often guilty of that last item.)
  • amanda.palisteramanda.palister
    Posts: 82
    incantu: :)
    BachLover: :):)
    kathyf: Thank you for adding to my acronym list....it took me most of the day to figure it out! ROTFLMAO
    mjballou: me too
  • amanda.palisteramanda.palister
    Posts: 82
    Joe: uh huh
    Carl: oh sigh!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    Good grief. You would think some of these choirs rival the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. My singers are not only amateurs, some of them are really getting old. When I consider their ages and physical limitations, they do a great job. If someone is occasionally late, I can live with it. Too many choir directors wear shorts that are too tight. I thought only we organists were that obsessed. ;-)
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    I was serious about my suggestion for comedy. I just talk a little bit about my week, various interactions, etc... I'm running a workshop tonight and I know I'm starting the workshop by talking about the trouble caused by the painters in the hallways of my apartment building, with some little funny comments thrown in. Choir members find their directors fascinating (because we're often quite out-of-the-norm), so if you give them something interesting that they don't want to miss in the first 3 minutes, they'll be there.
  • amanda.palisteramanda.palister
    Posts: 82
    Charles: Obsessive, possessive, and repressive are we....please be sure to wear suspenders to hike up those "shorts" ...should start a new thread about dress code, eh? :-P
    Matthewj: a serious comedian never fails to provoke a timely audience!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    I could use shorts. Our choir loft has a consistent temperature year round - hot! Suspenders and bow ties. We are definitely cultivating a nerdy image at CMAA! ;-)
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    I hate suspenders... they make your belt loops look ridiculous and take away from the shoe-belt relationship.
  • amanda.palisteramanda.palister
    Posts: 82
    matthewj: the obvious solution, then, is to arrive barefoot sans belt loops!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    Hmmm! Half-naked musicians. Now there's an idea for a fundraising calendar. ;-) Unfortunately, we would likely just fit in well with most U.S. Catholic congregations.
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    I understand the comment about taking this too seriously, thank you. But we also need to realize that our schola members do at times take this QUITE seriously, especially if they perceive that we're being unfair or preferential.

    My own attitude has been to try to keep the mood of practices light, even playful, but to reinforce that this is important work we're doing. And there's never enough ways to say a heartfelt Thank You for the contributions people are making.

    Carl
  • amanda.palisteramanda.palister
    Posts: 82
    Charles: indeed!!! although it may send some of my more sensitive colleagues into hysterics, and then where will we be?
    Carl: jellybeans are a means to an end :)
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    Chocolate. Always chocolate.
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    KathyF, I don't get it.
    I claim pregnancy brain... can you help me out?
  • amanda.palisteramanda.palister
    Posts: 82
    MA - congrats! LTWK = Let The World Know :)
    Carl - touche, especially the Dove Bliss Bars! Jellybeans are a close second of course, especially Jelly bellies :)
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    The advice to start on-time no matter who's there is correct--as is the advice NOT to waste too much time during rehearsals.

    It's POSSIBLE that 7:00 is too early for some; you might want to poll the membership about 7:15 or 7:30 start; if they're serving dinner at 6:15, 7:00 is tight.

    After you establish THEIR preferred start-time, that's exactly when rehearsal starts.
  • Hugh
    Posts: 198
    Fascinating discussion. Seems humanity is the same the world over.

    Our Sunday Mass here at St Aloysius Melbourne (Australia) is 11.00 am. We used to meet for choir practice at 10.00 am - a notional hour before Mass. But it was clear that people drifted in from 10.15, and then there was the panic 5 mins before Mass getting up to the loft, bathroom calls, etc. So we've factored all that in and now meet at 9.45 am, which solves most problems. But there are the persistent "laters", and sometimes that's still sometimes a problem.

    I confess, I was once a "later" myself, in my early adult years. Then I read an excellent time management book which hit home hard. The author stated baldly that being late is all about power. You're subtly controlling everyone else's lives by being late. It's not "Oh, I'm so unimportant, they don't need me." - as I was wont to console myself. It's "I'm so important, their agenda is nothing: it's MY agenda that counts." That stung. I had to admit: it was so true!

    Early and on-time people - and those mortified by being occasionally late - are exercising the virtue of humility. (I don't rate there 'cos I've read the book and could be feigning humility out of sheer pride. Besides, I'm now a director.) All the marvelous old rules about courtesy were based on that virtue: thinking of others before you think of yourself. They need reclaiming. And why not start in the choir?

    BTW: My impression is that sports teams - even amateur teams - have MUCH higher standards about lateness - or absenteeism from practice - than our church choirs. Does anyone else agree? If so, why the gap?

    One final thing I've heard: English-speaking choirs automatically think 7.00 pm means: arrive at 7.00 pm, have a chat, etc, and start at 7.05 or 7.10. Germans think 7.00 pm means: arrive at 6.50 and be ready to play or sing your first note at 7.00. I think the Germans have it right.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,115
    The reason is many Catholic choirs are so feebly filled with volunteers that demanding timeliness means you have to be willing to ditch part-singing if too few timely people show up as needed, and many choir directors are more attached to their programming than to building up discipline in that way. I personally am of the "on time equals late" school of musicianship, but I was trained as an orchestral horn player, and I find volunteer choirs often won't put up with the kind of disciplining that orchestral musicians have imposed on them and impose on each other as a matter of maintaining espirit de corps. (Eg, How often do you choral directors make individuals who are having trouble with the parts sing them solo before the whole choir?)
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Liam, we keep coming up on the opposite sides of things.

    Making volunteer singers sing parts solo is a very, very rude thing to do. It is discouraging, embarrassing and totally out of place in a volunteer choir.


    Catholic choirs are feebly filled because there are so few choir directors that have training, patience and ability to direct but even more so the humility to accept the people where they are, smile and greet them even when they are late, and make them welcome no matter what.

    Making a french horn player play in front of the orchestra does not increase espirit de corps. Taking the player aside privately and working with her or him to help them, that creates espirit de corps.

    You have to build the body up, not beat it down.

    By beating up on the latecomers to choir you are empowering the control freaks in the choir to fell even more self-righteous...this is like feeding tigers then wondering why they feel so free to turn on you when they want.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,115
    Frogman

    You are reading more opposition into what I am writing than is there.

    I was not recommending making a singer do that. You missed the dry humor in what I was writing completely.

    I have not recommended beating up on latecomers here. I was responding illustratively to the question of why choirs seem less willing to maintain the timeliness disciple of other performing groups. I was saying that insisting on timeliness has costs, and if you want to insist, you better be willing to pay those costs. That was my point.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,115
    Oh, and the horn being the most mistake-prone instrument in the orchestra bar none without a doubt (there are physical reasons for this being the case), humility is daily fare even for the greatest virtuosi of that particular instrument as with no other. I come at music from the perspective of not living in fear of mistakes, and there are many great techniques of getting people to confront and move through those fears.
  • kathyf
    Posts: 21
    Who is inspired by a wimpy choir director? Who wants to sing for a choir that won't be serious? You get there on time, you show up or you let the appropriate person know ahead of time, and while you're there, you focus and you work. How do people think they are going to glorify God if they don't do these things?
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Wimpy people can't glorify God?
  • kathyf
    Posts: 21
    Sorry frogman. I take it back.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Not at all... it IS is easier to follow a leader. It takes some direction...when you are working with a musician of talent who is introverted, it can be frustrating!

    They get mad when you keep asking, "But how do we do this?"

    Of course, conductors range from being very likeable to unlikeable and fall at all points in between. And some conductors who are very likeable are hated by control people in the choir who do not want others to like the conductor so they can control them instead of the conductor doing it!
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    Ummm...I don't think "introvert" is the word that is quite appropriate. Being "introverted" and being a leader are not at all mutually exclusive. They refer to completely different personality characteristics, which occasionally align as often as any other 2 personality traits do. I know plenty of extroverts who happen to be awful "leaders."

    I hope you weren't automatically connecting "introverts" with "wimpy choir directors," as mentioned above, which seems to me to be the direction that this conversation has taken...
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    No one said all extroverts were good leaders! Nor all introverts bad leaders!

    But extroverts are more apt to be effective communicators of what the have in their minds...
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    frogman noel jones 29 minutes ago edited
    Not at all... it IS is easier to follow a leader. It takes some direction...when you are working with a musician of talent who is introverted, it can be frustrating!

    They get mad when you keep asking, "But how do we do this?"


    yours was the first mention of "introverts" in this discussion. Therefore, you have strongly insinuated that introverts by their very nature are not good leaders or communicators.

    Please, let's try to keep this discussion on track, and talk about actual characteristics that *directly* negatively affect whether someone is a good leader/choir director. Of course I agree that people who are effective communicators will be better leaders. But to automatically make the jump from "wimpy choir directors are not good leaders" to therefore "most introverts are not good communicators" is an unfair generalization and not helpful to this discussion.
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