Music in D.C. for Papal Mass
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Looks like presentation on a lower level than NY:

    Someone asked about the music in Washington, D.C. I do not have a complete list, but can pass along all that he told me.

    Tom Stehle, who is in charge of music for the D.C. Mass told me that the liturgy will contain many familiar pieces. The opening hymn, for example, will speak of the Holy Spirit, but with a familiar tune – “All Creatures of Our God and King.” The Mass, recall, is a votive Mass of the Holy Spirit with Pentecost readings.

    The closing hymn will be “Alleluia, Sing to Jesus,” but with text about the Holy Spirit and being Christ’s presence in the world.

    The Alleluia will be taken from the ninth century chant Et Filii Et Filiae, “O Sons and Daughters” done with a vibrant brass accompaniment. The Gloria will be from the Old Mass of the Angels, without any accompaniment except for handbells.

    Stehle said there will be music in Spanish, Latin, French, and English. "There will be a contemporary version of Panis Angelicus, and some old favorites, including “All the Earth” (based on Psalm 100), written in 1966 by Lucien Deiss – a pioneer of the vernacular liturgy," Stehle concluded.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624

    Someday, someone needs to explain the attraction of those things to me.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    And yet we should add that the propers in this case are being handled by Fr. Weber.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Whoops, it gets worse:

    Plenty Good Room-------------------------------Spiritual
    Come, O Spirit of God---------------------------Manolo
    Sing Aloud Unto God our Strength------------Nelson
    Go Up To The Altar Of God--------------------Chepponis
    Ave Verum Corpus-------------------------------Mozart
    Spirit of God---------------------------------------LeBlanc
    Concertato On Grosser Gott
    Holy God, We Praise Thy Name
    O Spirit All-Embracing--------------------------Holst/Proulx
    Ave Maria-----------------------------------------Dett
    O Holy Spirit By Whose Breath----------------Latona
    Gloria – Mass of the Angels---------------------Proulx
    Lord, Send Out Your Spirit----------------------Peloquin
    Easter Gospel Acclamation----------------------Luckner
    Trilingual Intercessions--------------------------Hay
    Let All the World in every Corner Sing-------Argento
    Ven Espiritu Sancto
    Sanctus - Mass of Creation----------------------Haugen
    Memorial Acclamation – Mass of Creation---Haugen
    Fraction Rite---------------------------------------Honoré
    The Lord’s Prayer
    Psalm 100 – All the Earth-----------------------Deiss/Proulx
    Jesus Is Here Right Now------------------------ Roberts
    Ubi Caritas---------------------------------------- Hurd
    Pange Lingua-------------------------------------Manolo
    My God and My All-----------------------------Zaragoza
    Love’s Redeeming Work Is Done-------------Ogden
  • Jan
    Posts: 242
    I guess handbells can be considered 'active participation'(?) As for many selections above (yikes)...from the NPM top 10 (best of the worst in my books).
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    For me, handbells are some of the most gorgeous representations that we have of heaven on earth. The reach me on a very spiritual level. Different than chant? Of course. I don't mind that a bit.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,193
    Please, somebody tell me that music list is someone's idea of a joke. I must say, it's in poor taste. It is a joke, isn't it?
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,572
    No, sorry David, this is very similar to what happened with JPII when he came.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Well, i think there may be some doubt about the source. Actually, we don't know anything about the source. The admin of says that there is no mass in DC at all, so he doubts the authenticity.
  • john m
    Posts: 134
    How is it that in the Western Church, for a papal visit the organizers scramble about madly to provide music that is sufficiently politically correct, whilst in the Eastern rites, they would just provide the music of the Church and no one would think to question it? At what point did liturgical music in the western rites become more a matter of pacifying political factions than of simply praising God?
  • Regis
    Posts: 9
    I think the admin. of means there will be no large scale public Mass at the Shrine, which is correct (according to the post on NLM there will be evening prayer and a private Mass). But the Pope will say a Mass in DC at the new Nationals' stadium on April 17th-- I think this is what the music list on free republic is referring to.
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 989
    I've got mixed feelings on the subject of handbells. (Most of the music listed frightened me too much to comment on it.) The occasional use of open fifth of bells can do wonders. I wouldn't put it with Gregorian though. It's effective with medieval/early Renaissance music and with "Englished" chant to keep a larger group together. The problem is handbell "enthusiasm," leading to entire preludes of bells (and if you're not in the Raleigh Ringers or some such, that can be grueling listening) or a collapse into an entertainment model at Mass. Kids like them a lot - just make sure they stay on concert programs or as very, very short preludes.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Ah, so interesting. Mass of Creation seems more likely.
  • I was surprised the first time I saw handbells in a Catholic church. I always thought they were traditionally a Protestant medium. I guess I have no real problem with them. They beat electronic music for sure. Our church continues to ring them through Lent though... Well, I guess that's as bad as the fact that we will have a small "orchestra" on Good Friday too. It won't be long until I find a nice music-less Mass to attend weekly. My chanters are only able to work up occasional liturgies at that moment.
  • john m
    Posts: 134
    I have had handbells in my last three parishes as music director. I do not regard them as Protestant. Perhaps they have come to be regarded as such, because Protestants around the 1950's adopted them and have over the ensuing years made them over into a performance medium, relying largely on cheesy arrangements of evangelical tunes. But in fact, handbells have their origin in the English tradition of change-ringing, which is ultimately a Catholic tradition. Handbells were introduced as a means of practicing change-ringing without subjecting the entire countryside to the ringers' rehearsal. When used in a liturgically appropriate manner, and subject to the same norms as other musical instruments, I have no problem whatever with them.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Ok, so the more credible this report appears, the more it seems to require frank commentary. So i just wrote this
  • I used to joke that Haugen's music was "fast food" liturgical music.

    Then, I glanced at an interview with Haugen a few years ago where he admitted that the inspiration for his recent liturgical composition ACTUALLY CAME from getting fast food from Burger King (in the drive through lane).

    Not kidding.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,572
    Great piece, Jeffrey. It is definitely a slap in the face of the Magisterium. Fortunately, I will not be engaged in the music from where I will be unfortunately sitting.
  • G
    Posts: 1,391
    JulesVan Nuffel, that was a parody, NOT an actual interview with Mr Haugen.

    (The fact that it was so readily accepted as genuine on the 'net says less about people's gullibility than about their accurate assessment of the depth and content of the actual most widely heard selections of Haugen music...)

    Save the Liturgy, save the World!
  • RobertRobert
    Posts: 343
    This business about the Mass of Creation at the pope's visit is illustrative of a number of problems.

    I can appreciate the desire of the organizers to have a Mass setting that the people will sing. If this is the priority--and I think it's a good priority--it is not surprising that Haugen's dead horse, the Missa de Angelis of our time, was chosen.

    I recently attended a Mass for a small group. We decided it would be nice for everyone to sing the ordinary, and everyone in attendance just defaulted to the "Jubilate Deo" ordinary for the Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus (this being a rather "intentional" assembly, everyone there knew the JD chants). When it came to the memorial acclamation, though, there was a bit of hesitation. Father sings "Let us proclaim the mystery of faith" in a chant tone. The "Mortem Tuam" is not automatic, especially after an English cue. So what does everyone just instinctively sing? You guessed it, "Christ has died" from the Mass of Creation.

    If the "default" ordinary that every Catholic in the U.S. could sing automatically were the Jubilate Deo ordinary, as desired by Paul VI and reaffirmed recently by the U.S. bishops in "Sing to the Lord", there would be no problem here. But this is not so. Unfortunately, this is not the one that was foisted on congregations for the past 30 years - Haugen's is. Although "foisted" might be too strong a word - in fairness there's an element of "survival of the catchiest" at work here.

    There's also the language issue--the fact that there is a resistance to Latin in some influential circles means that only an English setting ever had a chance to become the default. It's unfortunate, then, that a simple, worthy, and catchy setting never emerged, and that a broadway chorus filled that void.
  • OlbashOlbash
    Posts: 311
    In a way, I'm pleased that the proposed music for the papal visit is so mediocre. His Holiness needs to hear how dismal the practice of liturgical music truly is in the U.S. "Why, if this is the best we can come up with for a papal Mass," he might observe, "then surely the music in the parishes must be quite dreadful!"

    Also, to "chime in" on the handbell discussion, I used to think they were tacky little toys, until I realized how versatile and expressive they can truly be. I'm now convinced that, after organ, handbells may be the second most worthy instrument for liturgical use. I'm rehearsing a piece called "Contemplations on the Ubi Caritas" by Catherine McMichael with my handbell choir -- quite an artful fruit of the instruction to composers that they create new works based upon and inspired by Gregorian chant.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    During communion, a group will sing the funky jazz ballad "Jesus is Here Right Now," which can be heard here. If you want to see the music, you have to pay $10.

    Here is a direct link
  • I have been troubled by some of the on-line commentary arising from reports of the music planned for the Washington and New York papal masses. The outrage, with Marty Haugen’s Mass of Creation being the principal quarry, demonstrates the very things for which internet communication is rightly criticized: its tendency to proliferate reflexive diatribe at the expense of measured, thoughtful consideration. There are also negative consequences for being so insensitive to tone.

    It was telling that no commentator, particularly at the New Liturgical Movement, thought to list any technical reasons supporting criticism of the Mass of Creation. The downward leap after the aspirate “Ho-ly,” the awkward accompaniment bass-line, and the punchy character of the melody would have been fair game. Rather, we were mostly treated to insults which only serve to cause those for whom they were directed to dig in their heels.

    Underlying my concern is a fear that such recklessness will undermine the significant gains made in recent years by the CMAA. Being politically savvy means knowing your strength and there is nothing in the American Catholic cultural climate that suggests the reform-minded are yet in a position to be calling the shots. If there was surprise in the release of the papal mass music programs, it was that so many were surprised. In my own archdiocese the reform movement is still in its infancy and, if the truth be told, mostly rejected by the general Catholic populace. There are some younger sympathetic priests, but from what I gather very few are experiencing success.

    Changing the American Catholic music culture is going to be a slow, hard fought process. Patience will be the required virtue for achieving the desired goal.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    I suppose this is directed against me, and I have no doubt that I could have done a better job at it. There are surely others who are better at musical criticism than I, and I did think long and hard before posting, knowing that people would say that my comments should be more measured etc. Further, I agree that change is going to be slow. But this Mass is going to encourage regress. The New York Masses are not ideal but they tend in the right direction.
  • G
    Posts: 1,391
    Handbells are valuable tools for keeping male persons involved in music at a point when they would rather die than sing in front of female persons of a similar age.
    MofC should be automatically disqualified from Catholic liturgical use by its lack of respect for the integrity of the text of the Missal.

    (Save the liturgy, save the world)
  • Lawrence
    Posts: 123

    I think you did the right thing by speaking up. Your post is quite reasonable, and perhaps it's tempting to get confused between what you actually said and some of the more unreasonable comments from others. In any case, as the pope told the Austrian bishops a few years ago, it's time to "look reality in the face." You know, it's been a long time since I've seen the list from the pope's visit to Baltimore in 1995, but this DC list might even be worse than that.

    Finally, we should all be most grateful that the music being planned for the Vespers at the National Shrine is going to be quite good with a most fruitful collaboration between Peter Latona and Fr. Samuel Weber.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,572
    BTW... the Pope was invited to come here (Baltimore) again, but the Pope cordially declined. (I wonder if he saw the rededication Mass and heard the music at the Baltimore Basilica on EWTN?!)
  • I certainly share your disappointment, Jeffrey, and meant no offense. My objection is with the insular mentality of many who responded to your post. Being in sympathy with an ideal, whether it be expressed here or at NLM, does not presume we should expect to get our way. Many commented, for example, that the Mass of Creation should be banished simply because its text does not adhere to the letter of the law. In an archdiocese such as mine where official directives - particularly from Rome - are often viewed as a complicit means to protect those who enabled child abuse or closed viable parishes, such a tactic is useless. It is far better whenever possible to simply let chant or polyphony make its own case on each individual soul, keeping in mind the warning Ted Marier used to give students: "Be careful, this can be addictive." I think it better, therefore, to engage respectfully as we can with that majority who hold different views. With luck, something positive will rub off before antagonisms work their nasty consequences.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    You know, it's interesting how we end up positioning ourselves in these issues. I once thought that waking people up to the problem is important. Since I've been more deeply involved, I find myself spending just as much time calming people down -- probably more time doing this than the other. There is a fantastic amount of unproductive anger out there. It does no good just to denounce and be angry. It is far far far more important to draw attention to the goodness of beauty and truth. This is the path to progress. So I post such things on NLM with great caution. I don't think it does much good to whip people into a frenzy.

    I might have made a mistake. I don't know. But this time, I felt that it was worth the potential cost. This liturgy is hugely important. Someone has to state the obvious. Otherwise we all end up paying a big price for our desire to be seen as reasonable and cautious etc. Again, these are strategic judgments and there are no final answers here. I do think it is important that we speak plainly sometimes, and this struck me as one of those times.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,193

    You have done well in this matter. Don't forget we're in the midst of the most spiritually vulnerable time of the year, and the Enemy wants us to feel defeated. He wants to bind our tongues; he'll hold up fear (his favorite weapon) as a way of holding back those who speak out bravely and in a spirit of charity. (I said something similar to this on the thread regarding the reform, and is worth repeating.)

    I hate sounding "preachy," but we need to face facts. Satan is real. His desire is to pull us deeper and deeper into the mire of sin. The Church fights with her best weapon, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Anything Satan can do to weaken the efficacy of this ultimate Sacrament he'll do. If the battles weren't real, the Holy Father wouldn't fight them as he does, time and time again.

    Also, I'm reminded of one of the works of mercy: to educate the ignorant. This is not to say the folks responsible for things like this are wantonly stupid (although some may be). They are ignorant. Any one of us who like me was catechised in a "spirit of Vat. II" parish, and intially became involved in Catholic Church music guided by the likes of NPM (and the "liturgical-industrial complex" as I recently saw it dubbed) were equally ignorant until someone, guided by the Holy Spirit, educated and enlightened us in this.

    People don't have to "like" the message, and in fact if we weren't seeing this kind of unrest, I'd say we were clearly doing something wrong.

    It's been said over and over again, and I'll add my voice:

  • Wouldn't it be something if the Pope did something completely out of the hands of the powers-that-be? Like chant the Canon?

    There is some precedence to this. At World Youth Day 2005, Eucharistic Prayer II was printed in the WYD booklets. I remember the joy that I experienced at WYD '05 when he went "off-script" and said the Roman Canon in German.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,572
    "But God has so constructed the body as to give greater honor to a part that is without it, so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another. If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy." 1 Cor. 12:24-26


    It is only right and responsible that we express ourselves as members of the Church and as a united voice (CMAA) that represents a vast knowledge and continued practice in the sacred art of music which serves the liturgy. Although you feel a moment of uneasiness, it will surely pass, and it is necessary for you and the entire Church that we are honest. We do not mean harm, we are only expressing discomfort. If we say nothing, in the end we will answer to God for not having done so. Our pain, however, should cause a greater concern on the rest of the body, because this part of the Body of Christ is in pain and needs attention.

    That said, I also leave you with an excerpt from our own Code of Canon Law which our Church expects us to follow which I recently put up on another post here:

    Can. 212 §1. Conscious of their own responsibility, the Christian faithful are bound to follow with Christian obedience those things which the sacred pastors, inasmuch as they represent Christ, declare as teachers of the faith or establish as rulers of the Church.

    §2. The Christian faithful are free to make known to the pastors of the Church their needs, especially spiritual ones, and their desires.

    §3. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 749

    I'm lost for words,

  • Dave
    Posts: 64
    Like Jeffrey, I also wonder at the appeal (emphasis on "peal") of handbells is. They're pleasant to hear when played correctly, but I'm not sure I'd go out of my way to include them in the music for Mass.
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 989
    Jeffrey said, "Someone has to state the obvious. Otherwise we all end up paying a big price for our desire to be seen as reasonable and cautious etc."

    And I'll second that point. While it is true that poorly expressed outrage is detrimental, those who are liturgically and musically "more conservative" are constantly urged (mostly by their opponents) to be gracious and patient and not to mind being stepped on and insulted. What gains we have made are more probably the result of those who were passionate (and articulate) and never moderated their standards.

    In addition to coping with the established liturgical music industry, we face another difficult group. These are Catholic music directors who, while they have good taste and skills personally, have basically "written off" music in their own churches. They do a good job at their work, but they never stray far from the greatest hits of the 1980s. Asked about other repertoire, they suggest that singers go to the nearest Episcopal or Lutheran church where both the music and the performance standards are expected to be higher. Part of this is a "don't rock the boat" strategy, whether conscious or unconscious; part may be battle fatigue from multiple Masses, all of which are expected to have "some sort" of music. But until we find a way to persuade these individuals that everyone can do better music, we risk finding ourselves thrashing around on the margins.

    This is not to say that organizations like CMAA aren't doing a great job and that individuals like Fr. Ruff, Dr. Mahrt, etc. aren't having a real, if gradual, impact. It's simply that I've run up several times recently against this "Well, what can we do?" accompanied by a shrug and a sad little smile.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Yes, it's true. We've all been through terrible battles, even those who have been involved only a few years. Some of these battles have been very close calls, and we've barely escaped. We look back at these and wonder if we had used different words if things would have been different. We regret our outbursts and and the main lesson we learn is to curb our dogmatism. We learn to be more humble and tolerant. We learn that this is a virtue, and pays spiritual benefits. All of this is part of the maturation process. We become better people and better musicians through it all.

    However, there is a danger that in seeing the virtue of submission and patience that we are tempted to finally give up on principles. We develop the habit of not speaking plainly and telling the truth. We learn to look beyond tackiness and even blasphemy, tolerating it more than we should. Then one day we wake up and we are part of the problem.

    The whole area of strategy toward change is a very difficult one. There is not a single answer that works for all. We need to learn the virtues of patience and humility and yet not give up our souls in the process. We need to learn to be wise, prudent, and principled -- all at once. It is so much to expect. We have all made our share of errors. I could bore people an entire afternoon chronicling my own.

    There is so much at stake. Prayer is final answer here. We can also learn from Jesus's own life, and we see times when he is fierce with outrage, fiery and shocking in some way, and other times when he is submissive and humble, declining to blast his enemies when he could have done so, and finally accepting death on a Cross. I suppose that we will be learning from his example our entire lives, never getting it quite right of course.
  • G
    Posts: 1,391
    "There is so much at stake. "
    There is, to be sure.... I meant it when I coined "save the Liturgy and save the WORLD." (Although it isn't really the world, or at least not this one.... )

    "We regret our outbursts and and the main lesson we learn is to curb our dogmatism."
    Sometimes we may experience immediate regret, (I think of the sleepless night wondering how I would make the next mortgage payment if I had been fired for one intemperate remark,) but after no more than a few weeks decide that it would be easier to live without ones house than to live WITH ones very self, had certain things gone unsaid.

    "there is a danger that in seeing the virtue of submission and patience that we are tempted to finally give up on principles. "
    Indeed. We need to discern between surrender and strategic retreat.

    MJ, I often think, when I'm deciding which battle is worth fighting NOW, of a remark you made about a colleague at "Chant Camp," something to the effect, "I don't want to end up angry all the time, like X."

    God bless you all!

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • Dear G,

    Oh, I didn't know that it was a parody — I remember reading it, but not where — can you please point to where I read it?

    I am grateful ~!!!
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    So there will be no "Mass of Creation" at the Papal Mass. see See here.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,193
    "The Papal MC and I went through the music."

    Good. Very good.

    (Anyone ever see the movie Young Sherlock Holmes? A wonderful line: "A very hopeful sign. . . Yes. . . Very hopeful!")
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    I only now realize that the statement is ambiguous.
  • G
    Posts: 1,391
    Here you are, Mr. VanNuffle:

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    A Washington Post story on this topic.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Let that be a lesson to all of us: BE CAREFUL of your words when defending a position! Thanks to the Post, anyone who dislikes Mass of Creation is now an extremist.

    And whomever (anyone who visits NLM knows who it probably was) sent hateful e-mails to Mr. Stiehle owes the entire CMAA an apology for embarrassing us. This incident was more of a setback to our cause than if the pope HAD used "Mass of Creation".
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Gavin, I don't think you have dealt with the media much. This was a decent story with fairly predictable pigeonholing.

    Neither I nor anyone else knows who, if anyone, sent "hateful" emails. All Catholics in this country have a stake in what happens at those Masses and there is nothing wrong with caring.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,193
    A request:

    Most of us have read the Post article over at NLM, along with all of the various comments on the several threads over there regarding this whole issue repleat with recriminations, blame-putting, accusations of hateful e-mails.

    As it is Good Friday, the day Our Lord suffered his most necessary death on the Cross, can we all of us please refrain from entering into discussions about the Papal Mass issue or indeed any issue likely to enflame our passions? Of all days, we are all spiritually vulnerable. There's no holy water in our stoups, there's no Mass celebrated, and at the end of the day today, there will be no Blessed Sacrament. The Devil will prowl today with greater energy than ever.

    Let us all please remain quiet and prayerful. On Easter Monday, we can pick up where we left off, and perhaps we'll find that the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete has intervened.

    May we all be blessed by our attention and devotion to these celebrations today, tomorrow and Sunday.
  • I congratulate those who have taken a stand for the Church in this issue.

    People sitting around on the sidelines, letting folks get away with abominations, have been the downfall of the last 40 years.

    It is time for us to stand up and stop tolerating insults to Our Lord. Look at where it has gotten us.
  • G, thank you for the link.

    I wish I could say that was an extreme parody, but it is actually mild compared to the nonsense I've read in "Catholic" liturgical circles (published for the last 40 years).
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    A woman went to confession to admit she had spread rumors about her neighbor and that, even worse, they had later proven to be untrue. The priest gently chided her and for her punishment said that physical discomfort was required. She was to go home, cut open her pillow and shake all the feathers out the window, sleep on the empty pillow all week, and come see him next Saturday.

    The perplexed woman did as told. Returning the following Saturday, the priest told her she had suffered enough. "Go. Pick up all the feathers, restuff the pillow and sleep in peace and comfort."

    "But Father," she replied, "the feathers have all blown away. I don't know where they all are."

    "Nor, my child, do you know where your hurtful words have blown."
  • I agree with priorstf. We have NO IDEA how many souls are scandalized when we perform in our Churches music that the Church has forbidden.

    With every passing year that I play Masses at Catholic Churches, I see more and more the power of music to weaken and destroy Faith. The Church is so wise to forbid certain styles from Mass, and we are so foolish when we disobey.

    Jeffrey, never back down! You are doing important work. Hopefully, if you keep it up, less "feathers" will be scandalized by hearing, for example, "Plenty Good Room" in a Catholic Church.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,572
    Amen, to JVN and we stand behind you JT. I have no post so as not to add to the scandal and abuse. I would rather not have a post than to contribute to the profanation of the Holy Mass.
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