Old Mass vs. New Mass • Novus Ordo vs. 1962 • EF vs. OF
  • Pope Paul VI wanted to make the Ordo as acceptable to Protestants as possible, without changing its nature.

    Therefore, there are no essential differences -- because to have changed its nature would have made it no longer what it has always been --

    Nevertheless, I propose the following experiment:

    1) Ask a Lutheran pastor if he can use the Ordo of Paul VI. Odds are that he can, because there is no genuflection before showing the Sacred Host to the assembled lay faithful in the Ordo of Paul VI.

    2) Offer a die-hard neo-con the chance to attend Mass in the Extraordinary Form or miss Mass. Chances are that he will miss Mass, because it won't "feel" as if he's been to Mass; or, he'll say "it's nice for a change of pace, but I wouldn't want it every week">

  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    It is quite clear that the OF could easily be very similar to the EF in many ways, however, the people celebrating it don't want it that way, and therefore choose to do things differently.


    Very astute observation, and I believe the choice of music could play a huge role in highlighting the parallel framework of the two forms and make it easier for people to feel comfortable and at home in both.

    However, there are obviously more than surface differences between them, and if you really want to dig further, comparing the Offertory prayers and the collects between the two forms of the Roman rite is quite illuminating (and depressing!)

    It's undeniable that there was an agenda at work when you see how the original content of many prayers was gutted and notions of sacrality, mystery, transcendence, sin, guilt, etc., were systematically removed.

    Comparing the traditional Roman Rituale with the 1964 Roman Rite is also an eye-opener. You ought to check out sometime how the rite of Ordination and the sacrament of Baptism and Confirmation have been changed (though I'm not questioning in any way the validity and holiness of the new.)
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,047
    I would agree that much of the issue between the old and new rites had to do with the way in which they are celebrated. Fr. Peter Stravinskas, for example, has said that if the new rite had been celebrated without some of the innovations we've seen becoming common in the past 40 years, i.e. things which were never mandated for the rite but were almost universally done as if they were - priest facing the people, substandard or other wise inappropriate music, liturgical experimentation and abuse, etc. - there would not be such liturgical controversy today.

    At the same time, minimalist and even sloppy liturgies were certainly not that uncommon before Vatican II (and of course low mass was the overwhelming "option"), so the issue cannot be reduced simply to how they are done.

    Even if the new rite is done with all the "traditional" options - Latin, ad orientem, chant, sung prayers and readings, etc. - there still are some significant differences between it and the older rite. The calendar and the lectionary are two obvious things, but there are many others that are more subtle, but can make a big difference over time. For example, the in the old rite, the collect, secret and postcommunion all end (as a rule) with the full Trinitarian formula, whereas this is retained only for the collect in the new rite. And many of these prayers were edited or changed entirely (not to mention the prayers, such as those at the foot of the altar, which were omitted altogether).

    Most of these changes are not that noticeable if you attend a mass in the old rite once or twice - after all, the bigger outline of the mass is the same. But these things can grow on you and become quite formative if you go every week for a year or two.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    The difference between the readings used in both forms has been a revelation to me. I grew up with the OF and used to puzzle over the three Sunday readings and responsorial psalm, trying to find the common themes between them and relating that to the collects. More often than not, they were not related to each other, and made much more sense from a thematic point of view only if you heard them every day.

    I appreciate the desire to give the people more readings from Scripture, but at least for me, it was almost always a struggle to find their relevance to each other on a given day.

    When I started attending the EF, on the other hand, there was such a difference. I find that the two readings have an immediate impact and are much easier to assimilate and connect with the propers and collects. I also like the way the readings are not changed but remain the same every year, hence, the custom of calling a particular Sunday after the Gospel for that day.

    Maybe it's a confirmation of that old maxim: less is more?
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,047
    The second reading on Sundays was never meant to be connected to the first reading or the gospel - it is a continuous reading from St. Paul (or Acts in the Easter season) - so perhaps you were looking for a connection that wasn't there? And I never thought of a connection between the collect and the readings, given that the latter are on a three year cycle. So I never looked for a connection between these things in the OF (though there's almost always an obvious connection between the OT reading and the gospel.)

    I agree with the maxim in this case: three readings and a responsorial psalm are simply too much to assimilate in a single liturgy. Plus the association of a set of readings with a particular day has been lost.

    I always been bothered by the sung propers in the OF, at least those in Ordinary Time, on account of the fundamental "disconnect" within the texts of the liturgy that you allude to. Although most of the sung propers were transferred intact from the old rite, the new rite has different readings and prayers, and so the interconnection between these elements - sung propers, readings, prayers - has been lost.

    Singing the propers in the OF is wonderful and certainly preferable to singing only hymns, but like many things in the OF, they are an attenuated version of their former selves. The integration between the prayers, sing propers, and readings has been retained for the great feasts, which is why these can be so satisfying in the OF.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,206
    1) Ask a Lutheran pastor if he can use the Ordo of Paul VI. Odds are that he can, because there is no genuflection before showing the Sacred Host to the assembled lay faithful in the Ordo of Paul VI.


    A genuflection immediately follows the showing of the sacred Host.
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    Can someone explain: would Lutherans object to genuflecting before showing the consecrated Host to the people, but not mind doing so immediately afterward?

    [Yes, I know it wouldn't really be a Host; but I'm using Catholic terminology for the sake of simplicity.]
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    Thanked by 1MarkThompson
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Can someone explain: would Lutherans object to genuflecting before showing the consecrated Host to the people, but not mind doing so immediately afterward?


    There are many Lutherans who wouldn't mind it. I've visited a Lutheran church before which essentially used the Pian Missal.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,469
    Also - There are (or were) a lot of Anglicans who would gladly use the Tridentine Rite (in Latin or Cranmerian English) but who wouldn't touch the Missal of Paul VI with a ten foot verger's rod.

    Of all the things to talk about, the opinions of Protestants with regard to the rubrics of the Mass seems the least useful.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,177
    If only Bugnini had thought like you..
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Which, Andrew, begs the question: Who was Bugnini thinking like with his cadre?