Return of the Orchestral EF Mass? Mozart's Requiem sung today in Norcia for Cdl. Mayer - full audio
  • Chrism
    Posts: 873
    Link - 1 hour, 23 minutes (same length as the monastery OF Sunday Mass last week). This includes homily(!) and recessional motet (Ave Verum).

    The Gradual and Tract, not set by Mozart, were sung by the schola according to the full Gregorian Propers. ALL of Mozart's Requiem was sung, including the full Sequentia and both movements of the Offertorium. The schola also sang the responses (e.g., Et cum spiritu tuo).

    With the total Mass time under 1:30, and the imprimatur of the Benedictines of Norcia, it is hard to imagine any serious objections against replicating this epic feat elsewhere, though cost will continue to be restrictive (orchestra + large choir).

    If you haven't subscribed yet, here's the link to the Norcia podcast.
  • Chrism
    Posts: 873
    Invoking the privilege to "bump" this thread. If anyone hasn't listened to the audio, he ought to - the mixture of the orchestra with silence, chant, bells and the chinking of the thurible is beautiful and stunningly powerful.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,117
    Well, Cardinal Mayer came from a region that had a long-established custom of orchestral Masses that has persisted to this day. That Norcia gave a nod to this is not altogether shocking, but its precedential value is nominal at best.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    Very impressive! I've been skeptical about whether it makes sense to present such a grandiose work in the context of the Mass, but I may have to rethink that.
  • BachLover2BachLover2
    Posts: 330
    i think orchestral Masses are not appropriate at Mass. they're all wrong
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    If you mean Mozart and Haydn type masses, I see nothing wrong with them. They are simply the mass at one point in time, just like polyphonic masses. Whether we like it or not, the mass in the western church has historically been much more influenced by the current styles than some would admit.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I think its a bit inappropriate for normal sunday usage.

    But I would love to see large parishes and cathedrals do monthly "concert masses" which could feature everything from elaborate settings like Mozart etc, to new compositions to (authentically performed) world music styles. Maybe even an overdone folk mass or "Praise and Worship" from time to time.

    (Obviously you'd have to be really careful to still make sure the Mass is about the Eucharistic sacrifice, not about the awesome music- but I'm sure it can be done.)

    This could be:
    -a fundraiser
    -an evangelization opportunity
    -a PR/advertising bonus
    -a chance to "try out" things you want to do at normal masses, but people don't think will work (polyphonic propers or full Latin OF, or whatever)
    -a venue for lovers of various styles to "get it out of their system," allowing room for plainsong at your normally scheduled mass
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    I would go for the Haydn masses over Mozart. However, many of them are too difficult for every Sunday use - at least, they are for my choir.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    doesn't St. John Cantius do this every year for All Souls?
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    Yes, and they've done it too at Holy Name Cathedral, though this past year I think they did Faure.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,117
    One does need to distinguish among works even by the same composer. The form of orchestral Mass that employs operatic technique for solos, duos, quartets, et cet., and extended instrumental sections, is very hard to square with Church norms for liturgical music even before Vatican II, though as a cultural custom in Mittel Europa it survived outside the norm, as it were. A concise missa brevis composition can squeak by on occasion, but the bigger works really just need to be clearly understood as outside the norms (that's not saying they could never be done - the Roman sensibility permits the occasional non-conformity in non-essential matters, so long as it is understood that the exception never itself becomes part of the norm, something that eludes people from the legal culture of the Anglosphere....). Oh, and for the OF, you cannot separate the Sanctus and Benedictus (Cdl Ratzinger's pre-papal musings on that point remain gainsaid by current rules) as was formerly the case in the EF, and that's a factor in considering the choice of work, because having to marry those two things is not always a happy thing.
  • don roy
    Posts: 306
    bachlover2
    thats a pretty definitive statement you made there.
    this question was settled beautifully for me at last years colloquiem when they did the haydn little organ solo mass
    as was mentioned earlier, the combination of chant smells, formal ritual and then full orchestra and chorus, yea...it works it works beautifully .
    Id be a little less eager to consign a large repertory of catholic music to the concert hall if i were you...
  • Chrism
    Posts: 873
    Liam, at $10-20K scale for each Mass, I don't think there's any danger of this becoming normal any time soon. Perhaps in Cathedrals or places like Cantius, and even then not regularly, or when a rich person dies.

    But there's no reason it cannot come to your Cathedral and my Cathedral at some point in the next ten years, and even merit mention in the local paper and nightly news.
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