LA Installation Liturgy
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Has anyone seen the worship aid for the mass posted on the LA diocese website?

    Good Lord, forgive them, they know not what they do ...
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,576
    The live video feed starts today Wed May 26 at 1:30 pm Pacific Time.

    Any timestamp estimates for Offertory and Agnus Dei ?
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Did the new bishop have any say in this?
  • orourkebr
    Posts: 57
    I just cannot believe anybody still likes this music...I've said it before, and I'll say it again, besides this music not being suitable for the Liturgy, I just feel like a tool when I'm singing "All Are Welcome" or any related piece.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,576
    http://coadjutor.la-archdiocese.org/Pages/LiveMass.aspx

    13:50
    Just tuned in, and got a "squeeze in closer" announcement, but they show lots of transept space un-used,
    now we get the "no photos" announcement.
    13:58
    The procession has started but the cantors are singing the Prelude music medley "Come all you people" ...
    No congregation participation, they might as well have used an introit chant and organ improv.
  • don roy
    Posts: 306
    wow! the becker litany! at a major cathedral!
    im so underwhelmed my teeth may fall out.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,138
    Looking at the program, it is certainly sad and depressing. I am not wasting my time with the live feed.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Here's the problem -

    Either by design or not, the newer bishops being appointed are sufficiently "conservative", but in a "pastoral" way ... I.E., I have my opinions and I will make them known, but don't worry, I won't force them on you.

    Go read what the whispers in the loggia blogger says about the coadjutor regarding how people in LA who were worried need not fear, he's not one to come in and make sweeping changes.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,576
    15:18 PDT
    finishing the prayers of the faithful
    here comes offertory Durufle Ubi Caritas
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    I appreciated the Latin, but it felt a bit lost amongst all the other languages. The multiculturalism message comes out 100 times stronger than the messages of unity.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,921
    Live feed: http://coadjutor.la-archdiocese.org/Pages/LiveMass.aspx

    After the papal letter of appointment, we heard the gospel-style Boogie of Peace ("This is the day the Lord has made"), with some jazz-guitar licks thrown in, as Abp. Gomez was welcomed by the other bishops.

    I trust that Abp. Gomez did not choose any of the strange music.

    After the intercessions in about 17 languages, the Durufle Ubi Caritas was interleaved with a song in some Asian language with droning percussion, about my heart, my life, my offering, my love, my this, my that ("As your holy place").

    The Holy was a multi-lingual confection that no one will ever be tempted to perform in a regular parish for a real congregation.

    Cardinal Mahony offered the Eucharistic Prayer according to the formula "for various needs and occasions", the so-called Swiss anaphora (option I: "The Church on the Way to Unity")
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    I was hoping they would actually do the Agnus Dei as simple chant, but then no.... We need it interspersed with multiple translations.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,576
    15:35 PDT
    The Eucharistic Prayer has just started. I am west coast but getting a much-delayed feed?
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    Oh. My. God. One Bread, One Body done as a Bill Murray Saturday Night Live skit. Are we still in Mass, or did my browser switch over to YouTube?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,921
    Oh. My. God. This show satirizes itself.

    OBOB with a sax player -- truly reminiscent of the SNL band -- slow dance rhythm on the drums, and extravagant soloists on the verses.

    Interesting auditorium there, by the way.

    (Hey, I arrived at the same shocked formulation as Carl! It must have been inevitable.)
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    I'm not watching it. I hope that 'some Asian language' wasn't Korean. I'll be truly embarrassed. Is this what 'inculturation' mean? I would really appreciate if people whoever is, keep my beautiful culture out of being a tool of this embarrassing distraction. There are plenty of other places where Asians can share our culture and be more appreciated.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,921
    Now that you mention it, Mia, I think the singer was Korean. But on replaying the video, I'm not sure.

    [Followup: a reader has identified the language as Vietnamese.]
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Oh, no.
    Koreans are usually shy and polite to say 'no' when someone invite us to do something. (my last defense for my folks). I want you to know that we don't usually demand 'things' in this country or churches. Koreans work very hard, and the parents do their best in educating their children both American and Korean cultures. You might have noticed, depend on where you are, that there are many many Korean schools, churches (as well as Korean groceries, which have books and other Korean things, also the martial art studios! where students, regardless of their races, learn to respect and count in Korean.).
    We do our best to keep our culture without troubling this country nor the churches, for which we have great respect.
    But I admit that there are embassassing moments, and they stand out.
    Surely I don't want to see Koreans take part in this sort of 'inculturation.'
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,921
    Well, you can settle the question for sure. The song may indeed be in some other language: there are people from many countries in L.A. The song starts at about 01:34 during the event; a recording is already available.

    However, that wasn't a particularly shocking moment, unlike the moment after 01:24:15 when the band kicked in.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    This is very disturbing, especially the communion song. The Durufle sounded like a funeral dirge, and... did I hear piano accompaniment? What a sad state of affairs. It's like someone turned back the clock to 1983. Who's asleep at the wheel?
  • Adam Bartlett
    Posts: 533
    Who's asleep at the wheel?


    I think that's easy to answer: Mahoney is. But not for long, thanks be to God!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,921
    OK, here's a list of highlights (such as they are) from the recording:

    00:10 Entrance procession begins
    00:17 Procession continues with Becker litany, ending at 00:26.
    00:27 The Mass begins. Opening remarks by Cdl. Mahony.
    00:33:30 Penitential rite: spoken invocations with sung "Kyrie eleison", imitating Becker;
    "Glory to God" (Jones, arr. Walker)
    00:41:30 In place of a psalm: "Shepherd Me, O God" (Haugen), in English and Spanish.
    00:50 Gospel procession, with an Alleluia roughly in the style of the show "Sabado Gigante".
    Gospel and homily.
    01:18 The papal mandate is read and shown.
    01:24 The Cardinal seeks the assent of the people and welcomes the Archbishop.
    Song: "This is the day the Lord has made" (an up-tempo song somewhat in Black Gospel style).
    01:26:30 General Intercessions
    01:31:30 Durufle, Ubi caritas, with a segue into "As your holy place" (bilingual: Vietnamese/English),
    then a combination of the two, running all the way to 01:44!
    01:45 Preface dialogue -- spoken!
    01:46 "Holy"
    01:49 Consecration
    01:50:30 Acclamation: "Dying you destroyed our death"
    01:54 Amen.
    01:54:30 Our Father - spoken
    01:54:45 Agnus Dei XVIII, mashed up with some other melodies
    01:59 First communion song: "Behold the Body of Christ/Ang Katawan ni Kristo" (Manalo)
    02:03 Mariachi-style song ("Tu eres el pan de vida"?)
    02:06 "One Bread One Body" a la SNL, ending at 02:13.
    02:34 Recessional hymn: "God, we praise you" (NETTLETON, text by Idle)
    02:37:30 Widor: Toccata from Symphony No. 5

    Note: To advance through the recording, or to rewind slightly: each "right-arrow" shifts the recording five seconds.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,601
    From what I recall from the job description, the Asian language would probably by Vietnamese, if not, then Tagalog.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,921
    Well, here's a clip so that people who know can check.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,431
    See, this is why we still need good hymns. (Besides for the breviary.) Christopher Idle, as he so often does, ends things on a classy note.
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    What a bizarre version of the Becker Litany! Only two saints per line, instead of the three that are usually crammed in, and quite a few who seemed to be left out, but an absolute ton of randoms thrown in in no discernible order (I'm guessing to hit each country that matters). On the plus side, no Origen!
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    I thought he meant ERIC Idle!
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Finally I got to hear it. It's not Korean. It's very strange to me that there are high population of Koreans in LA, I didn't even see a Korean traditional costume even in that strange procession of carrying banners. (what are those banners anyway?) Maybe God spare Koreans from this 'inculturation' show? That 'mysterious song of the girl' remains as some Asian song to many. I guess that's good enough to know?
    This is one of the worst example of misguided Liturgy I heard of and controlled by individuals, and not obeying the Church's instructions. "WE" in LA are represnedted as spoiled children with ignorant guidances.
  • From Rocco Palmo: “ . . . suffice it to say that the ‘Show of the Century’ more than lived up to the hype that preceded it... so much so that it gave a certain scribe from Pharaohdom the most powerful, moving experience of worship he's ever had.”

    If you ever wonder why Descartes thought that the claims of sensory perception must always be met with radical skepticism, the above should convince.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,604
    Why would anyone assume that Abp Gomez did not approve the program? That's bizarre.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    I hear some of my homeschooling gruop kids said before,

    one,
    "mom, when does the Mass start?" (after he waited patiently watching strange activities and singing songs with guitarist up in the front.)

    another,
    "The Mass was changed so much and confusing, I couldn't follow it very well."
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,431
    Here's a blog thingie I wrote last year after the Holy Father's apostolic journey to Africa:

    Whenever you see a picture of Pope Benedict talking to people, he's got this shy smile thing going on. And yet, he's brilliant, and although welcoming of people, he's ruthless about ideas. Regarding liturgy he can see nonsense claims coming from miles away--and then he devastates them.

    A lot of electronic ink has been spilled over the Pope's recent plane ride TO Africa, mostly because his remarks had something to do with sex. But his remarks on the way back FROM Africa were much more dramatic. As I read them, I thought I heard the echoes of the old Bat Man comics' fight scenes.

    Speaking of the Masses he celebrated in Cameroon and Angola, the Pope said,
    "[I was] moved by the spirit of meditative absorption *POW!*
    in liturgy, the powerful sense of the sacred *BIFF!*;
    in the liturgies there was no self-presentation *BANG!*
    of groups, no self-animation, *ZAP!*
    but the presence of the sacred, of God Himself; even the movements were always movements of respect and awareness of the divine presence. *KAPOW!*

    This multi-whammie, smiling pre-emptive measure undermines all future attempts to point to the African liturgies as a positive example of the multi-cultural fad in liturgy. Yet another ephemeral wave in the endless cycles of fads that have mainstreamed since the last Council, multiculturalism (like all the others) effectively downgrades the liturgy from the most intimate possible sharing of heavenly and earthly realities available to us on earth, to an anthropological celebration.

    The most astonishingly candid expressions of the superficiality of multiculturalist liturgy are the various Dancing Puppet Liturgies, in which non-human, non-animate artifacts are dressed up to represent various colors and genders--which then "participate" in the liturgy.

    I'm sure that we can all see the difference between Africans dancing at Mass vs. midwesterners, and their puppets, dancing at Mass. Yes? But the Pope wisely made a very public and clear distinction.

    It's not wrong to express ourselves in the liturgy. But we must express ourselves liturgically, and in Christ. We are at Mass to open ourselves to God and to come into direct, real contact with the Father through Him--never losing the "sense of the sacred" and the "respect and awareness of the divine presence."
  • G
    Posts: 1,391
    Thanks for reprinting that, Kathy.

    Liam, I wouldn't assume that, but someone with some knowledge of Gomez+ might know enough to "trust" so, either from the aspect of knowing his liturgical and aesthetic proclivities, or that of knowing his personality.
    At my parish, we've had "welcoming," "congratulation," anniversary and "farewell" Masses where the guest of honor or his posse micro-managed every detail, and others where his diffidence, and his deference to whatever the SOP was startling.

    And anyone, I have trouble translating Whisperese sometimes-- who's the "scribe from Pharaohdom"?

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • BachLover2BachLover2
    Posts: 330
    cardinal mahoney was a walking scandal, and i am so glad he was finally replaced. this is great news for the church.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,921
    Liam, Cdl. Mahony is still the archbishop of LA for some months to come, until the Pope officially accepts his resignation. He was also the principal celebrant of that Mass. For both reasons, Abp. Gomez did not have any authority in Church law to make decisions about the music or the liturgical options selected.

    Abp. Gomez was probably consulted as a courtesy, and it may be that some positive elements in that Mass are there as a result, but I'm just guessing.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,431
    G, Palmo is referring to himself (the scribe) from Philadelphia, the realm of the Pharoah (Cardinal Rigali).
  • hqd824
    Posts: 2
    That Asian language interspersed is Vietnamese. I'm Vietnamese and understood it all. There are alot of Asians in LA I'm sure, and definitely Vietnamese; if you look in the background in some of the shots, Bishop Dominic Mai Luong could be seen (the first Vietnamese-Born American Bishop, Auxiliary of the Diocese of Orange). The music was quite underwhelming and while Vietnamese masses are very well done, the music is not!
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 990
    I'm enormously happy I didn't see this.

    The mysterious "multi-cultural" liturgy pleases no one except its organizers. It is a constant reminder of differences at a moment when differences should be transcended. Not only is the multiplicity of languages jarring; it's the salad bowl of musical styles. These are Masses where the music sounds as though it was selected by an iPod on "shuffle."

    A couple of evenings ago, I played for a funeral at a church famed for its friendliness and informality. The deceased was a pillar of the parish, of the Knights of Columbus, and retired military. We had a homily that was a eulogy and then two more eulogies. The music was our area's funeral standards minus Amazing Grace.

    The Air Force sent a two-member honor guard to fold and present the flag. Performed with reverence, solemnity, and grace by two young men, that ceremony showed what a ceremony should be. That flag meant something - and something that merited absolute attention to detail.

    All the shuffling around, hand-holding, and "Softly and Tenderly" during the Mass was a thought-provoking contrast. (Well, it was thought-provoking for me.) If the Mass is "the source and summit of the Christian life," as we hear regularly, then doesn't it deserve the best, the attention, the care? And if we really don't think it's that important, why bother? Even puppets won't help.
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 830
    Richard, you needn't guess: Archbishop Gomez was not consulted about the music.

    "Pharaoh" is the Philadelphia nickname for whoever is the archbishop there.

    I was named to the liturgy planning committee but could not attend the first planning meeting. It would not have mattered: Music planning had already been taken out of the hands of the cathedral music director and of the committee and handed to those who plan and perform the music for the liturgies of the Anaheim Religious Education Congress.

    I did suggest a Te Deum after communion , so the Christopher Idle answered that need.

    Cardinal Mahony did accept my suggestion that the second reading come from Hebrews 4:12–16, the source of Archbishop's motto.

    For the archbishop's first visit to the seminary I have adapted the centonized introit, Gaudeamus omnes in Domino, to accommodate the Latin of Hebrew 4:16: Adeamus cum fiducia ad thronum gratiæ, ut misericordiam consequamur et gratiam inveniamus in auxilio oportuno.

    The Duruflé bookended a Vietnamese offertory song that is a favorite here in the archdiocese.

    Cardinal Mahony spoke the Preface Dialogue because he has not confidence in his singing voice (he can sing the Latin).

    I was keenly disappointed that the eucharistic acclamations were not rehearsed. They were 'brand new' to the archdiocese. Not did we rehearse the "acclamation" to the Rite of Reception. And I was distressed that the songs at communion made no echo of the liturgy of the word. I would have preferred one communion song.

    More later. I have to go.
  • hqd824
    Posts: 2
    Agreed mjballou! Even though it's interesting to hear your native tongue at a mass, it's quite presumptuous to in a sense,to force people to accept their brand of multiculturalism. If I were say a Japanese or a Kenyan, there's a part of me that would be a little irked that MY language didn't get included...and that logic could go on ad infinitum. That's why we should all resort to Latin, and not the token Latin "gesture" which this (and most masses during Lent) attempted to offer...what kind of joke was that? We are ROMAN Catholic, we celebrate the LATIN Rite, it's not a Latin-inspired Vietnamese Church, or a Latin-inspired English Church, etc...it has been and will always be the Latin Rite.

    Anyways, I also found it condescending coming from a non-English background.... no one else but the handful of Vietnamese could have understood what was said, and in the end, it seems it was not memorable...so why bother? Usually, such well-intentioned attempts end up being rushed and "put-together" and while such actions expose people to another language it doesn't immerse them in it and thus does not allow for a deeper appreciation-- which was the original intent.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Paul,
    Do you imagine that Frank Brownstead would have voiced any objections to the potpourri, really?
    You mentioned "a Vietnamese offertory song that is a favorite here in the archdiocese." I know you were typing in haste, but there is so much data to ponder within that statement it could boggle the mind, well, my mind at least.
    "a favorite...." First Rorschach image in LA context- a diner with those little table top juke boxes.
    "here...." Where is/are "here" in the collective mindset of the shot-callers in LA? Is heaven part of that "here" in your estimation?

    To any who watched: did the congregation seem to participate to a greater or lesser degree than some of the major televised Masses at Shrine IMC, or any other "big event" Mass like the Kennedy funeral or National Stadium?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,921
    Thanks for the local info, Prof. Ford!
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 830
    Charles,

    Frank Brownstead can speak for himself but I know him to be a magnificent human being and a great Catholic. I know for a fact that he would have taken the music for this mass in a much different, more traditional direction. He would also have achieved a much greater participation.

    I feel injured as well at your sarcasm about my assessment of the Vietnamese piece. Does the fact that the piece is sung at most ordinations in the archdiocese and has been adopted by Spanish and English-singing congregations carry any weight with you? I am not a shot-caller in LA; but I hope my opinion counts for something.

    Blessings,
    Paul
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    It's very strange to me that there are high population of Koreans in LA, I didn't even see a Korean traditional costume even in that strange procession of carrying banners.


    This is what happens when one tries to be "inclusive": you end up being exclusive. Every congregation is as diverse as the number of people in it. No two people are exactly alike, and it's impossible to represent each individual person's myriad differences. We should be concentrating on the way in which we are all the same, not how certain groups share the same differences. That is division, not unity.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    While I can appreciate the 'good intentions' of those who try to include different cultures, I hope they also understand how they are expressed in Mass. It doesn't seem to do any good to people to say the minimum, especially to the natives of those different cultures both included and not included.
    Korea has 5000 years of history with her own distinctive culture and tradition.

    (thanks hqd824 for your post and letting us know it was a Vietamese song. I totally agree with you! I'd have been rather distracted if there was a Korean song.)
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    No sarcasm was intended regarding your statement about the Offertory, Paul. My deepest apology for giving that impression. And I meant no disrespect to your advisory duties for this liturgy, tho' the term "shot-callers" could, indeed be taken as derogatory.
    I just pondered aloud, in haste as well, the notion of choices based upon popularity. I absolutely understand that there may be a galaxy of issues at play when crafting the liturgical events and responsibilities for a Mass that "the whole world is watching." And you know that we deal with these issues in the Central Valley as well, even at the parish level. And I can appreciate the necessity and expedience of well-intentioned decisions to be inclusive, as Incantu mentions. But, I really was serious in my pondering about the notion of "well-known" or popular. To be honest, as you did ask, that aspect does not play but a minute role in my own practice.
    But I am heartily sorry to have given offense. And I hope you accept this apology.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,921
    I noticed some choices that seemed out of balance.

    First, in the use of time: the Kyrie and Gloria took about one and three minutes respectively, which is a good amount of time for an average parish Sunday Mass to take on them. The preparation of the gifts, on the other hand, took thirteen minutes, having been elaborated with a procession of people -- about 12-15 representative pairs -- bearing altar linens and clothing the altar, and then the presentation of the gifts and the incensations. Is it proper to clothe the altar at this point in the Mass anyway?

    One cannot fault anyone for the time the entrance procession or the distribution of communion took. The entrance takes as long as is necessary. On the other hand, ten minutes of the Becker litany is probably more of it than even its fans would want. No one would have suffered from hearing an organ piece for a few minutes of the 17-minute procession.

    Come to think of it, the distribution of communion was probably lengthened by the choice to distribute the sacrament under both forms. This may have been a counterproductive choice liturgically: the altar was loaded with a multitude of chalices - at least 25 of them. The scene reminded me of Fr. Dennis Smolarski's book How Not To Say Mass, in which the liturgist warns against diminishing the symbolism of a single bread and a single cup. He even quips that such an abundance of hardware makes the altar look like the awards table at a bowling banquet.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    I think the foundation of those really do adore these hodge-podge liturgies is the fact that the "tradition" of the Church is a very European (and perhaps Italian) tradition. They ask themselves why should ancient Italian manners and music continue to dominate today. Until we come up with a more convincing (note I did not say "better") reason than "the Church tells us so". The entire hierarchy of the Church is based on the Roman governmental model, anyway. These folks think that it is time for other cultures to have a say. Maybe this is a fair attitude, but I agree that multicultural liturgies only serve the multi-cultured. We may lament the old days when each ethnic group had its own parish(es), but I think that this situation worked much better. 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants eventually moved on and integrated. In our current situation we try to mix congregations at big events and Holy Thursday. Although I would love to have Latin as the common language, it just generates the response, "oh, yeah, then NO one will understand the Mass."
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,021
    "Oh, yeah, then NO one will understand the Mass."

    I've been thinking recently that this is the core issue/problem. Everyone is so intent on "understanding" the Mass. Of course, you can only do that through the language. Some of us talk about "transcending" during Mass, but maybe there's another way to express the problem.

    What happens at Mass - the core of our Faith - cannot, by definition, be "understood". Experienced, maybe. But we cannot comprehend the Mystery - no matter what style of music we sing it to.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,601
    And even if you do not understand the meaning of the words, for the time being teach your mouth to say them, for the tongue is sanctified by the words alone whenever it says them with good will.
    —St. John Chrysostom, On Psalm 41:2, (PG 55:158)

    Virtually all know the words of this psalm and they continue to sing it at every age, without knowing, however, the sense of what has been said. This is not a small charge, to sing something every day, putting forth words from the mouth, without searching out the meaning of the thoughts residing in the words.
    —St. John Chrysostom, On Psalm 140, (PG 55:426-7)
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Sorry, I really did ramble there... I guess my point was that we need a more convincing answer for those who insist on understanding the texts and actions of the Mass (because they've been taught that it's important) and for those do have a point when they note that the tradition of the Church is linked to a particular culture's practices of worship and reverence. It is easy for those of us of European descent to accept this, but I do wonder about how others do. On the other hand it seems to have worked pretty well for centuries. Perhaps the general exodus away from religion (or to other Christian denominations) in the industrialized countries has Church leaders so worried that they will do anything that might work.